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US Assault Rifles For Indian Special Forces

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Manmohan Yadav, Aug 7, 2012.

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  1. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    The American M-4 assault rifles—used by the elite US Navy SEALS to eliminate al-Qaeda chief, Osama bin Laden, are all set to be inducted into the Indian Army's Special Forces battalions for use in counter terrorists operations.

    India recently signed a deal with the US worth several crore of rupees for procuring the M-4 carbine rifles for the Army’s eight Special Forces battalions.

    [​IMG]

    The US Special forces have used these guns extensively in operations across Iraq and Afghanistan and are now being inducted into the Indian Army's eight battalions. These are the same guns that were used to hunt down Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan's Abottabad in May 2011.

    India had also in the recent past inducted the Israeli made Tavor-21, Uzi and mini-Uzi rifles for it's special forces. The government has confirmed that the American rifles will not replace the Israeli rifles but will as a matter of fact complement the Israeli rifles, thus making India's special forces even more deadlier.

    Before the induction of the Israeli rifles, the special forces of India were using AK-47s. Apart from state-of-the-art rifles, the Special forces are being equipped with a host of other gadgets and equipment's to make them a deadly fighting force.

    The Parachute Regiment of the Army has 10 battalions under it and eight of them have been trained as Special Forces. These special forces are trained to carry out counter-terrorist operations during peacetime and sabotage enemy installations beyond enemy lines during wars.

    The Special Forces battalions include the 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 10 and 21 para units, which are deployed in different sectors of the country and have also been given responsibility to handle any 26/11 type attacks if they occur near their area of deployment.

    The Indian Army wants to increase the number of Special Forces battalions to more then 10. A battalion is made up of 700 soldiers each.
     
  2. Skull and Bones

    Skull and Bones Doctor Death Staff Member MODERATOR

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    We could have just increased the order for Tavor, M4 is no match for it.
     
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  3. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    M4 weighs less and has longer effective range compared to TAR-21,
    maybe thats why they wanted it for SF ops.
     
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  4. UBIQUE

    UBIQUE REGISTERED

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    G'day gents,

    An interesting topic.

    Whilst both the TAR 21 and M4 are excellent weapons there are some pros and cons for both lets have a look at some:

    TAR 21:
    Weighs 3.2 kg with a 30rd Mg
    Length 720mm
    barrel length 460 mm

    Pros:
    Bull pup configuration, longer barrel in a shorter weapon.
    Increased accuracy
    Can be used freely whilst patrolling in close terrain and operating out of vehicles and aircraft
    Battle tested
    Firing mechanism is located behind the weapon centre of gravity (pistol grip) and forward of the master shoulder, giving minimal requirement for support from your non master arm (pros of all bull pups)

    Cons:
    Still not battle proven in all terrains and environments
    slightly heavier
    No real options for modularisation
    slightly expensive
    Unless you plan to build them in India, you need to purchase all parts from Tavor, might be costly considering the fact that they and maybe the ukranians are the only producers.

    M4
    Weight 3 Kg with a 30rd Mag
    Length 840 mm (extended stock) 750 mm (stock reduced)
    Barrell length 370mm

    Pros:
    Lighter
    has been battle proven on all continents except Antartica, especially reliable on all environments (desert, littoral, jungle, urban and mountain)
    Can modularise (limited to one's imagination)
    Cheaper
    Parts are cheaper (produced by 3 major firearm firms in the US and countless other little ones)
    With India deepening ties with the US, it's only a matter of time before major exercices and perhaps even operations take place, when this occurs the Quartermaster system in both armies will be able to interchange parts if neccesary, plus soldiers from both sides need minimal famil with each others weapon systems if the need arises.

    Cons:

    Longer
    Less accurate than the TAR 21
    Conventional firing mechanism (over magazine well, slightly forward of weapon's centre of gravity, needs more support in order to be accurate)
    No Gas piston, Gas pushes directly onto face of bolt, If not maintained properly then chances of stoppages are high.


    There, I believe the main reason it was picked for SF was, it's ability to modularise ....

    Soldier now has the ability to customise his weapon to suit his mission:
    x 4 ACOG optics -----Done,
    reflex/trijcon sights ----Done,
    PEQ laser illuminator, for day and infra red ----Done,
    torch light - - Done,
    Suppressor ---Done,
    Grenade launcher attachment ----Done,
    Shotgun attachment -----Done and done,
    IpAD--------not there .....................yet..............................


    All of this in a matter of seconds due to the picatinny rails on the weapons.

    Without all the options you might as well stick with the TAR 21
     
    HarshBardhan, Gessler, Devil and 3 others like this.
  5. Devil

    Devil Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    are they going to come and check India's equipment once we buy this like they did with if yes hell with it buy it from somebody else u.s is not the only one making assault rifles Tar 21 from israel is better
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  6. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Tavor is an Israeli weapon, and infact a few years ago Tavor was purchased for Special forces. mainly the Paras.
    Instead of M4, I might have opted for HK416 OR 417, which have been proven to be more reliable than then M4s

    Yes, so our special forces have to pull down their pants so that the "equipment" can be tested.
     
  7. halloweene

    halloweene Major MILITARY STRATEGIST

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    Check second part of second video :treadmill:

    No comment required... (Although M4A1 reliability improved i was told)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2014
  8. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    No surprise though, European products are always better than American counterparts. Wish
    we had bought the H&K M416 instead of M4.:tup:

    Let's see what turns up...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2014
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  9. Immanuel

    Immanuel 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    well I believe that is a rather silly statement, not all EU products are better neither are all US weapons inferior.

    Matter if fact:

    Superior weapons from the US:

    KRISS smg, COLT C901, HK 416 was developed by HK mostly in the US based on DELTA Force requirements,

    Danial Defence M-4s are far superior and come in different lengths and types than even the HK

    Just you tube the Torture Test for the DD M-4

    Weapons like the ACR, XCR and LWRC are also very reliable. Rifles like the HK 416/417, SCAR were also developed mostly in the US.

    Barrett Sniper Rifles have no EU equivalent for the price. Furthermore 6.8 spc, 6.5 Grendel and .50 Beowulf are also US made new calibers.

    Even the reliable Sig516 was developed partly in the US and Swiss.

    So I think there should be little criticism for buying the M-4, we do not know which version was aqcuired and M-4 is quite a loose term and there are many very reliable versions and rifles like the DD M-4 should easily suit the requirements for our SF units.
     
  10. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Why not develop our own INSAS into soemthing that armed forces want,
    Maybe they should take project with Private indian contractors who might want to develop rifle for indian army as per Indian requirement. For heavens sake stop messing the balance of trade by importing everything.
     
  11. Immanuel

    Immanuel 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    That would be ideal, I would love to see the MSMC in vast circulation for State and central armed Police forces for one. The MSMC already is 99.7% reliable and should be inducted asap. Trichy AR should be standard after some of kinks are ironed out. the Amogh carbine, Excaliber rifle are also ideal, they just need a tweak of colapsible stocks and more rails. They can certainly be used by law enforcement agencies.
     
  12. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    No Indian firearm is going to be procured in numbers as long as the present mindset of the govt. babus does not change.
     
  13. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Firstly congratulations on being nominated a Star member

    There are kickbacks as high as 40% or even some say 100% (means we get half the rifles for the money we paid) so why would the Politicians go for Indegenous weapons.
    Most growing countries are going for their own designed rifles.
    UK, usa, France, Germany, ITaly. Brazil. and even small country like Israel.

    So what the hell is our problem, the biggest problem is LACK OF NATIONALISM
     
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  14. King Of Kings

    King Of Kings REGISTERED

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    We have to develop our own INSAS.
     
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