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War: India vs china

Discussion in 'International Relations' started by VinodKumar, Apr 24, 2013.

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  1. VinodKumar

    VinodKumar 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    What are the strengths and weakness of indian armed forces if a war starts in 6 months with china.
     
  2. Brandle

    Brandle FULL MEMBER

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    The present incursion of PLA elements into LAC is not something unprecedented. India did it in 1984 by incursion into Pakistani side in Siachen. The Indian army had the total support of Indian government. Pakistan made attempts to wrest back the area in 1987 when Pakistani commandos under Brig Pervez Musharraf launched an offensive. In 1999, Pakistan army’s para-military troops crossed into Line of Control (LoC) and occupied unmanned positions in the Kargil sector to use it as a bargaining chip to assert its position on Siachen issue. This move, a tactical in nature, was frustrated by Pakistani politicians for petty politics; to look as good boys in the eyes of Americans and Indians. This was the reason that politicians conspired to sack Musharraf and teach generals a lesson but the move was frustrated when army took over on October 12, 1999.

    China?s Ladakh incursion vindicates Kargil operation | Pakistan Express
     
  3. VinodKumar

    VinodKumar 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Kargil was a blunder done by pakistani generals with wrong assumptions and poor planning. they thought that after taking positions in kargil they will negotiate and get some area in there. but they never imagined that INDIA will use IAF and heavy artillery bofors guns at kargil peaks. and when pakistani army was surrounded pak govt refused to supply reinforcements when it saw hard hitting. pak govt LEFT THEIR sOILDERS FOR DYING WITHOUT SUPPLY AMMUNITION AND FOOD SUPPLY.
     
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  4. ricky123

    ricky123 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    u cannot count advantages and disadvantages ... cuz whatever advantages india has is lost by week leadership in new Delhi .....

    u cannot compare apples with oranges ....
     
  5. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Firstly there was no detailed planning, only General Musharraf knew all the details, rest was on "need to know basis" thus there was less chances of co-ordination.

    They knew that Indians might use planes and Artillery, but the area is such that once you are dug well, the terrain itself will protect you, because the only way to kill is if a shell falls down at 90 degree, so bombardment did not have desired effect.
    but yes they did cause casualties.

    Pakistan government did not want a full scale escalation because the international opinion was on side of India as victims and thus escalation would favour India and that would be like starting on backfoot.
     
  6. ricky123

    ricky123 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    stick to the topic plz .. is this china vs india or india vs pakistan ???
     
  7. VinodKumar

    VinodKumar 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Does chinese af can be a major threat to IAF...
     
  8. Averageamerican

    Averageamerican Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    As of 2009 half of Indias BVR missiles did not work, I doubt if the problem has been corrected.
    India has a sever shortage of tank ammunition, artillery ammunition, tanks were night blind, few night vision glasses for troops



    In January 2010, then army chief, General Deepak Kapoor, had announced that 80 per cent of his tanks were night blind, which in other words admits that they were unfit for war. And when the use of force was considered after the 26/11 Mumbai terror strikes, all three service chiefs sent to the defence minister a laundry list of equipment deficiencies. Proposals to Fit Indian Army Tanks with Night Vision Devices Progressing - Defence Now

    Besides this, a slew of media reports over the preceding decade have highlighted deficiencies in the mechanised forces; artillery; the air defence network; the infantry and Special Forces being key among them.

    Systematic military intelligence analysis, of the kind that is routine in Rawalpindi and Beijing, would leave Pakistan and China with no doubts about India's military weakness. But the Indian public might miss the broader picture.

    Tank fleet

    Designed to deter Pakistan from sponsoring terror strikes inside India by posing a threat to retaliate with a deep offensive into that country, the tank fleet remains near night blind.

    While the 800-odd T-90S tanks in service, as well as the 124 Arjun tanks can fight at night, India's 2400-odd T-72 tanks, a 1960s Soviet design, are mostly night blind, and are comprehensively outclassed by Pakistan's T-80UD tanks.

    The planned purchase of add-on night sights for the T-72 had dragged on fruitlessly. Even if it is implemented, it would hardly make up for the badly outdated T-72 design.

    The army chief's letter to the PM also drew attention to the deficiency in armour piercing tank ammunition, with depots holding vast quantities of training ammunition that is incapable of penetrating an actual tank.

    In any high-intensity war, ammunition shortages would bring the strike corps to a grinding halt well before the attainment of its objectives.

    Artillery

    For a century, the most crucial arm on the battle, in terms of casualties caused on the enemy has been the artillery.

    India's 220-odd artillery regiments (there are 18 guns in a regiment) field equipment that is at least a quarter of a century old since there has been no artillery procurement since 1987. As a result, the army uses a mix of many kinds of different guns, a logistical nightmare in terms of maintenance support and ammunition handling.

    The process of inducting new artillery will take at least five years, and is complicated by the MoD's blacklisting of almost every major international arms vendor.

    The Artillery Rationalisation Plan proposes to acquire 3,000-3,600 155mm, 45 calibre ultralight and 155 mm 52 calibre towed, mounted and self-propelled guns in the next decade for about 180 of its 220 artillery regiments. But there is no movement for now.

    Air defence

    Pakistan's inability to detect the incursion by the US Special Forces team that killed Osama bin Laden made that country seem militarily inept. Similarly, India's porous air defence network could lead to national embarrassment.

    The radar network, which must provide seamless and layered coverage across the length of the border, has huge holes, and the development and production of new radars by Bharat Electronics Limited has lagged badly.

    India's air defence guns are today 40-50 years old. The L-70 and ZU-23 guns are from the 1960s and 1970s, while programmes to upgrade them by mating them to modern radars have still to be implemented.

    Missile systems like the SAM-2 Pichora are repeatedly given life extensions, even as they remain obviously incapable of bringing down a modern, high-performance fighter.

    The situation is even worse for the mechanised forces' mobile air defence, equipped with Russian platforms like the ZSU-23 Schillka and the OSA-AK (SAM-8) that date back to the 1970s.

    In the last financial year, the MoD has signed Rs 17,000 crore worth of procurement contracts for air defence artillery. But Rs 13,000 crore of that is for just two squadrons of indigenous Akash missiles, which will be deployed in the northeast. Many of the big holes remain unplugged for now.

    Special forces

    Even as the army takes pride in the capabilities of its special forces, many of these units still engage in counter-insurgency operations with the venerable AK-47 assault rifle, perhaps the only special forces in the world that carry such outdated equipment.

    Equally worrisome is their night vision capability, a key concern since special forces operate mainly at night.

    Another key capability that lags is man-portable communications.

    Infantry

    The Indian Army's 350-odd infantry battalions, respected worldwide for their discipline and commitment, are amongst the most neglected arms. This is ironical, given that most army chiefs have been infantrymen.

    Most infantrymen say that the infantry's primary weapons, the 5.62 mm INSAS rifle and light machine gun, which the Ordnance Factory Board fabricates, have not met the standards of a modern army.

    Even more worrisome is the infantry's night-fighting capabilities. Most of the 30,000 night vision devices which Bharat Electronics Ltd had been asked to build remain undelivered.

    Short range radio communications remain another dire weakness. Senior officers admit that Pakistani terrorists who infiltrate into J&K often carry better NVDs and radio sets than the army jawans who combat them.



    However, a sense of realisation appears to be dawning on the MoD and there is a concerted attempt to modify procurement procedures and structures in order to fill these glaring gaps in defence capability. But, given that the average procurement contract takes six to seven years from conception to delivery, many of these gaps will continue for now.

    There are some things about the Indian Army that haven't changed since 1947. One of these is the PT shoes that jawans are issued -- canvas with thin rubber soles, shoddy and old-fashioned, manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board.

    Defence Minister A K Antony was on a visit to the north east in February last year. At the 3 Corps headquarters in Rangapahar in Nagaland, Antony asked the jawans if they needed anything. They said hesitantly if they could get a new pair of shoes every year instead of every 26 months that is the current practice...and if the shoes could be better quality... .

    Everyone in headquarters agreed that this was imperative; the Indian jawan deserved better and put up a proposal that canvas shoes be replaced with smart Reebok, Adidas or Fila shoes that were at once smart and light but rugged.

    I have never seen a soldier wearing tennis shoes.

    I doubt if any of the above problems are really fixed by now, attemps are being made to fix some of the above problems.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  9. VinodKumar

    VinodKumar 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    does that mean PLA tank fleet is superior......??and indo china border doesnt support tank battle very much .
     
  10. VinodKumar

    VinodKumar 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    And a war is not just won by numbers its won by the better use of equipment available ..and history had proved it. a tank can kill 10 other tanks if the commander is smart and got to fire first shot.
     
  11. azzythehillbilly

    azzythehillbilly REGISTERED

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    @Average American
    Thanks for a book sized review.
    I suspect that the Indian side is quite well equipped. The noise one hears from time to time regarding deficiencies is merely a ploy to garner larger budget allocations.

    Every element, that is, equipment, training, tactics and determination have a bearing on a battle. It is the difference in any of these terms, between the combatants, that would determine the outcome, other elements being equal.
    What I find to be troubling is the lasting scar left on the Indian psyche by the 1962 debacle.
    The only means, in my opinion, to remove it is for India to achieve a resounding victory in a battle with an equal. Pakistan, or Srilanka will not do. The events of PKF in Srilanka in fact served to lower India's stature. And skirmishes with Pakistan lower India to the level of Pakistan. Being stuck in a stalemate with Pakistan will forever keep India on the level of Pakistan.
    Not an attractive idea, but India will have to get into some exchange of fire with China to become a regional actor of worth.
    I am not advocating a war but if India really wants what it seems to covet, She will have to start a war or two. Given full support from all the actors victory is readily achievable.

    Azzythehillbilly
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
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