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What would be the requirement of the IAF as per you in the current Decade?

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by smestarz, Aug 23, 2011.

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  1. GUNS-N- ROSES

    GUNS-N- ROSES Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    DEAR SME STARZ,

    it is extremely difficult to list down QRs for each category in detail. u have just covered the basic/general requirement. however wen a ASR (Air Staff requirement) is given by airforce it covers much more. it goes into depth of each and every aspect of platform.

    u r effort is indeed praiseworthy. however i wd like to contribute a small addition. in u r requirements of CAS u have stated that plane should be flying at subsonic speed. u have probably gone by observing various CAS aircrafts.

    the ideal requirement wd be that the plane should have a wide "speed envelope" where in it should be capable of flying at both low and high speeds. a wider speed envelope gives more variety in terms of speed to aircraft. aircraft can then fly at both various subsonic and supersonic speeds. while subsonic speeds help plane in performing its desired tasks, the supersonic speeds help plane in getting away from theatre of action after task has been completed.
     
  2. Death.By.Chocolate

    Death.By.Chocolate 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Not all pilots are fortunate enough to gain experience by participating in combat training exercises like Red Flag or Cope India. Considering USN live fire of munitions such as JAIM (training and evaluation version of AIM-120) is limited to only 11 per year some pilots can go through their entire career without ever firing an expensive guided munition.

    In my opinion, the IAF need training simulators similar to the ones that are installed at the Naval Air Stations at Lemoore and Oceana. The simulators at Oceana range from the simple PTT (Partial Task Trainer) to the sophisticated Tactical Operational Flight Trainer (TOFT).

    The Partial Task Trainer(PTT) is meant to familiarize new pilots with the aircraft, the OFT (Operational Flight Trainer) is a flight simulator while the Weapons and Tactics Trainer (WTT) and TOFT simulates combat missions in a multi-pilot environment, this equipment allows the pilot to gain invaluable experience and practice /fine tune combat tactics, weapons employment and emergency procedures with other squad members. A WTT/TOFT simulator can be more expensive than the aircraft itself but all things considered the cost of the equipment is well worth it.

    On seconds thoughts, considering the diversity of IAF equipment and munitions such facilities may be cost prohibitive.
     
  3. GUNS-N- ROSES

    GUNS-N- ROSES Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    ^^^^ i totally agree wid u. i think Airforce hasnt given adequate attention to simulators. we can really reduce dependence on "real flying" by giving adequate experience to pilots on "simulators". i think airforce wd in general do well to invest in training simulators. sure, the cost is prohibitive but in long run it works out to be cheaper.
     
  4. Wolf 9

    Wolf 9 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    I would love to see .....

    ASAP basic and advance trainer A/Cs .

    more MRCA ( split in two A/Cs ) - 300 + A/Cs , ET / Rafale ---126 ( two engines ) , and Gripen NG / F 16 IN --- 176 (one engine ) .
    Attack helicopter :50 - AH 64 Apache Longbow ,
    Multirole helicopter :50 - Battlehawk ,
    Heavy lift helicopter :50 - CH 47 Chinook .

    http://www.sikorsky.com/StaticFiles...ments/Mission Downloads/S70-054_ABH_BR_hi.pdf

    India should join with SAAB for light 5th Gen A/Cs and must avoid Mig for that .
     
  5. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Firstly thank you for an important update.
    The reason why I decided the plane to be subsonic is for following reasons
    A) Since it is close support aircraft, hence it should have heavy weapon loading (Anti tank missiles and Guns for Anti tank or strafing) to make each sortie count
    B) Since its going to be close support (and anti tank aircraft) So it might be safe to assume that it would come under fire from All sort of ammo from Calbre of 12.7 mm to SAMs, the plane should be armoured so that it can take hits from Ground based anti aircraft guns at least
    C) Since its CAS wil have to fly low, so its operations would be lo lo lo so having supersonic ability at low levels will only reduce life of the airframe

    This is my logic

    But mainly for CAS to operate successfully, Complete air superiority is very vital. just so not to be bumped off by enemy planes
    :)
     
  6. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    This thoughts of yours does not actually add to the topic, but nevertheless it is very vital, as if the pilots are trained well, they might excel in the roles that they are given
    Thank you :)
     
  7. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    I am of the opinion to split the contract between EF and Rafale, but that would mean putting two different lines for production Rafale and EF and so we shall need more experienced personnel to handle lines for EF and Rafale, thats the problem

    Gripen NG I am not in favour of Gripen, primarily because the engine is American and and we need American VETO and HAL Tejas has very much near the same specifications as Gripen NG. F-16 is agile and good, but then we have to sign various user treaties with USA which are not good for us,(CISMOA ETC)
    We do need Attach Helicopters, something like Apache or Black Shark but then I would rather desire a V/STOL plane like V-22 Osprey as its design etc can give it best of both worlds of an Aircraft and Helicopter Range and speed of a plane and ability to take off vertically like a helicopter.
    Rather, this type of craft can take care of 3 roles. Attack. multi role and heavy lift.
     
  8. Wolf 9

    Wolf 9 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    press release

    Aug. 4, 2011, 3:35 p.m. EDT

    Bell Boeing Submits V-22 Osprey Multiyear II Contract Proposal
    Proposal would fortify industrial base, yield substantial savings to U.S. Government

    PATUXENT RIVER, Md., Aug 04, 2011 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- The Bell Boeing V-22 Program, a strategic alliance between The Boeing Company /quotes/zigman/220026/quotes/nls/ba BA +2.78% and Bell Helicopter -- Textron /quotes/zigman/243306/quotes/nls/txt TXT +3.92% , announced today that it has submitted its proposal to the U.S. government for a second multiyear procurement (MYP II) contract for the production and delivery of V-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft. The five-year, fixed price incentive proposal would provide the U.S. Marine Corps (USMC) and Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC) with the full complement of Ospreys outlined in the U.S. Department of Defense program of record and yield double-digit percentage savings over a single-year procurement strategy. In addition, the proposal would fortify Osprey production through 2019.

    "Bell Boeing is very pleased to respond to the Navy's request for proposal for a second multiyear contract for V-22 Osprey production," said John Rader, Executive Director, Bell Boeing V-22 Program. "In an era that demands greater fiscal responsibility, the MYP II contract would enable us to most-efficiently deliver this revolutionary capability to our customers while generating further savings for the American taxpayer and bringing strength and stability to the industrial base."

    The Bell Boeing V-22 program is presently on-time and under budget in successfully executing its first multiyear procurement contract, which includes fiscal years 2008-2012 and calls for the production of 174 aircraft including 143 MV-22 variants for the Marine Corps and 31 CV-22s for AFSOC. The MYP II proposal includes 122 aircraft (115 MV/ 7 CV) over fiscal years 2013-2017, continuing deliveries through 2019. Bell Boeing now awaits the results of the government's evaluation of its MYP II proposal.

    Ten USMC and five AFSOC V-22 Squadrons are operational today and the two services have together logged sixteen successful combat, humanitarian, ship-based and special operations deployments since 2007. The worldwide Osprey fleet has amassed more than 115,000 flight hours, with nearly half of those hours coming in the past two years alone.

    Safety, survivability and mission efficiency have become hallmarks of the operational fleet. According to Naval Safety Center records, the MV-22 has had the lowest Class A mishap rate of any tactical rotorcraft in the Marine Corps during the past decade. Further, Fiscal Year 2010 Navy flight-hour cost data also show that the Osprey has the lowest cost per seat-mile (cost to transport one person over a distance of one mile) of any U.S. Navy transport rotorcraft.

    The V-22 Osprey is a joint service, multirole combat aircraft using tiltrotor technology to combine the vertical performance of a helicopter with the speed and range of a fixed-wing aircraft. With its nacelles and rotors in vertical position, it can take off, land and hover like a helicopter. Once airborne, its nacelles can be rotated to transition the aircraft to a turboprop airplane capable of high-speed, high-altitude flight.

    More than 145 Osprey tiltrotors are currently in operation. Marine Corps MV-22s are currently deployed in Afghanistan supporting Operation Enduring Freedom and with the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit supporting contingency operations, while AFSOC CV-22s are deployed once again in support of ongoing Special Operations missions.

    About Bell Helicopter-Textron:

    Bell Helicopter, a wholly owned subsidiary of Textron Inc., is an industry-leading producer of commercial and military, manned and unmanned vertical lift aircraft and the pioneer of the revolutionary tilt rotor aircraft. Globally recognized for world-class customer service, innovation and superior quality, Bell's global work force serves customers flying Bell aircraft in more than 120 countries. Textron Inc. is a multi-industry company that leverages its global network of aircraft, defense, industrial and finance businesses to provide customers with innovative solutions and services. Textron is known around the world for its powerful brands such as Bell Helicopter, Cessna Aircraft Company, Jacobsen, Kautex, Lycoming, E-Z-GO, Greenlee, Textron Systems and Textron Financial Corporation. More information is available at Textron Home .

    About Boeing Defense, Space & Security:

    A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is one of the world's largest defense, space and security businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is a $32 billion business with 68,000 employees worldwide. Follow us on Twitter: @BoeingDefense.

    Certain statements in this press release are forward-looking statements which may project revenues or describe strategies, goals, outlook or other non-historical matters; these statements speak only as of the date on which they are made, and we undertake no obligation to update or revise any forward-looking statements. These statements are subject to known and unknown risks, uncertainties, and other factors that may cause our actual results to differ materially from those expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements, including, but not limited to, the following:

    -- Changing priorities or reductions in the U.S. Government defense budget, including those related to military operations in foreign countries;

    -- Changes in worldwide economic or political conditions that impact demand for our products, interest rates or foreign exchange rates;

    -- Our ability to perform as anticipated and to control costs under contracts with the U.S. Government;

    -- The U.S. Government's ability to unilaterally modify or terminate its contracts with us for the U.S. Government's convenience or for our failure to perform, to change applicable procurement and accounting policies, or, under certain circumstances, to suspend or debar us as a contractor eligible to receive future contract awards;

    -- Performance issues with key suppliers, subcontractors or business partners; and

    -- The risk that the proposal will not be accepted and no contract will be awarded to Bell Boeing.

    SOURCE: Textron Inc.



    http://http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bell-boeing-submits-v-22-osprey-multiyear-ii-contract-proposal-2011-08-04
     
  9. Wolf 9

    Wolf 9 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    V-22 Osprey ($ 118 million)

    It is a very fast, something to be desired by all aircraft design, and there’s no exception on this V-22, Wide reach, speed and flexibility. V-22 aircraft or helicopters is not just ordinary, but a combination of both. Twice the speed, reach further five times, and can fly higher than twice the usual helicopter became the hallmarks of this V-22.

    http://http://most-expensive.info/page/8

    *****

    The price is high for V-22 .
     
  10. Wolf 9

    Wolf 9 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Both are good A/Cs , ET and Rafale .

    But the price of both is high . I would like to add one high cost and one low cost A/C . IAF needs more aircrafts in hurry . So they needs to think about it , can get them built (may be) 50:50 . Like mki .

    I think when we are getting GE 414 for LCA , it would be same for NG , no VETO ( I think ) .
    One engine , low operation cost , may be same weapons like ET ( may be not all but nearly same as ET ) .
    We have more A/Cs who have long range - Mki , FGFA , ET/ Rafale . What we needs more and ASAP is single engine , multirole like LCA mk2 . But can not get them fast . So what choice is left ? Buy them from others .

    I do agree for CISMO issue . That is why I add NG . With no end user issues and with all source code .
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2011
  11. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Thank you for your update. yes the V-22 Osprey is expensive but my view is
    a) For developing indegenous designs based on the developments in the world and getting as per our own requirements
    b) Depend less on foreign purchase as then we cannot develop our own technologies and learn

    For example, we did buy T-90 and we did develop Arjun, T-90 is cheaper and lighter than Arjun (as reported) but with Arjun, we did develop our own design, and we did learn some short comings of the designs, and importantly WE IDENTIFIED THE SHORT COMINGS AND WE CAN FIX THEM, rather than requesting the foreign manufacturer to fix these short comings which will be more expensive as we have to send the equipment there for fixing, or they have to send team and equiment here for fixing which becomes expensive, and what we learn from it is O

    So, all these requirements that I thought of are as per me, what we need, and since there is example of V-22 osprey available, so I thought to advice about the design, else its difficult otherwise to express what I want, communication is two ways my friends, what the author says and what the readers understands.. but if there is an example then the communication is better.
    I am not saying that i am in favour of purchasing osprey, but we can develop something like that, and rather than having propellors, we can have Turbofan engine, which might make it more powerful and faster,,
    Any additions on this idea
     
  12. Wolf 9

    Wolf 9 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Good idea .
    But we are talking for current decade , I am not in favor of any new platform - develop and make at home .
    The simple reason is it will be nearly impossible for HAL .
    Yes , for next comming decade . ( It will be good ) If HAL start now , for home developed and made something like V-22 .
     
  13. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    For the "V-22" type Helicopter, I have some crazy suggestions. like having 3 engines
    2 Engines at the end of the Wings (can we use Turbo fans or they would be too heavy? and third TVC Turbofan on the tail .
    This might actually help turning much faster specially a 360 rotation (not revolution)
    If its a Turbo prop then I might suggest a "pusher" type turbo prop at the tail with the fan eclosed in protective covering like in Gazelle helicopter. to the Fans/rotors are safe, :p
    Do I sound like an idiot?
     
  14. Wolf 9

    Wolf 9 Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    What about this ?

    Eurocoter X3 .

    [video]http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/ref/Videos_1101.html[/video]
     
  15. Nirvana

    Nirvana Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    Actually You are Imaginative ,

    [​IMG]
    V-22 With Two Turboshaft Engine , You are Talking About a Third Engine on Tail May be a Turbo prop
    How About , Two Ducted fan On The Tail of Osprey Powered By Turbofan Engines :mamba:
    Some thing Like This
    [​IMG]

    This is Sikorsky S-72 RSRA
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Two Turbofan Engines in two outboard nacelles To Increase The Speed, And Two Turboshaft Engine to Power The Rotars

    This are 'Scorpion Gunships' from Movie Avatar
    [​IMG]
    Each Wings has 2 co-axial Counter-Rotating 3 bladed propellers in a ducted fan Powered By 4 Turboshaft Engines

    How About This Concept ? :smokin:
     
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