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What would be the requirement of the IAF as per you in the current Decade?

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by smestarz, Aug 23, 2011.

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  1. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Few things, smez:

    Quote Originally Posted by smestarz View Post
    I do agree that setting up production lines of both EF and Rafale will be expensive, but what we shall get is vital experience in handling cutting edge technology and to learn from both the planes and possibly give these inputs for AMCA
    India's experience wouldn't improve tremendously (technologically speaking), opening both Rafale and Typhoon lines. They're fairly similar, so India would end up wasted billions of dollars. Given the state of global economics, we really don't need that.
    TYPHOON IS CONSIDERED TO BE A BETTER AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER, SO IT CAN BE THE TOP LEVEL AIR DEFENCE. THE RAFALE CAN BE THE MIDDLE LEVEL AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER AND DEEP PENETRATION PLANE. ALSO WILL BE COMPLIMENTED BY SU-30MKI IN BOTH LEVELS


    Quote Originally Posted by smestarz View Post
    Correct me if I wrong, but the heavy twin rotors can give you good ability to Hover and some forward speed, but then the Helo does needs an engine or two to give it forward thrust am I right?
    No.
    SO YOU MEAN TO SAY THE ROTORS ON TOP ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR FORWARD THRUST AS WELL?


    Quote Originally Posted by smestarz View Post
    http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver...d2bea.Full.jpg
    This might be a safer design to start with
    That probably isn't "safer" per se, more complicated but faster, sure. Looks like it could carry bigger loads too. Guess we'll find out how good it is if the S-97 programme goes through.
    Safer approach means someone is doing it, and less need for experiementation if the concept can work or not,
     
  2. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Have you been following the Rafale vs Typhoon thread? There's some useful info pasted on there, debunking the Typhoon being superior in A2A theory. Right now, the Typhoon's advantages over the Rafale lie largely in speed and the reach of its BVRAAMs (AMRAAM outranges the MICA). But then, this advantage is nullified with the introduction of the Meteor. Plus, as a combat aircraft, the Rafale is more mature than the Typhoon, which has some ways to go before achieving the same degree of multirole performance. So it isn't a valid point to make, Typhoon being superior in the air I mean. Nor does it make sense to say that, should the Typhoon win the MRCA over the Rafale, that the Rafale should be acquired in equal numbers as well just cuz its A2G ability is superior to the Typhoon. India will be paying for the development of the Typhoon's A2G enhancement programme, speeding it up considerably. So with that in action, it would save India a lot of money just to buy double of whichever aircraft happens to win the MRCA, rather than split the order.



    Well, yeah. That's basically how most helicopters achieve both lift and propulsion. The tail rotor is usually employed for stability. Coaxial rotors don't need tail rotors, and the RA3 "Twinblade" chopper that G777 posted, that one wouldn't need additional forward propulsion either. Know how in a Chinook, the aft rotor spins in the opposite direction of the forward rotor? Well, same situation on a Twinblade-type chopper, except they'd be side by side.


    Ah.
     
  3. Sanjeeb Bose

    Sanjeeb Bose Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    I tend to agree with you on this.. Since India is also coming up with the AWACS five of them from Israel and the second line will be the home made one's, it will cancel out some of there advantages, I believe due to the small size of Pakistan will be very difficult for them to hide those big aircraft... After few days of war the AWACS advantage will cease to exits as those will be taken out either on ground or on air. Next engagement, the one with good numbers will control the war... the initial exchange will be bloody killing with large losses of aircrafts...that was my reasoning for going in for numbers.

    I have a view that if we go for two [126 in numbers from each] instead of one we can get 48 aircrafts from the vendors itself in fly away condition... and if one fails just like scorpean sub, we may fall back on other one... I am still bit concerned about the fighter numbers they are very low for India requirement...

    We have to think seriously on the possibility of inviting private players in the aviation sector for simultaneous production line, the government agencies are not in a position to gear-up & manage the increasing higher production demand.
     
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    AMCA is basically aimed to be a 5th Rafale, a true multi role fighter with good air defence and stirke capability and since it is expected to get the Kaveri - Snecma engine based on Rafales M88, that we already used French HMS and avionics in most of our fighters, an AMCA project benefits the most from Rafale of course. Apart from that I see it like Vritra, they are very similar so it would just be a huge waste of money to get both and I think you don't realise how costly that would be.

    What do you think is MMRCA for? Twin engine fighter for air defence and deep strikes mainly!



    Actually I don't really understand what you mean by that? :what: An AWACS is not armed, it detects targets from long distances, but also stays in safe distance to them. It always requires fighter escorts and I think you have mistaken the idea of BVR combats as well, because you can't simply fire a missile as soon as a target appears on your radar. In a BVR combat between 2 fighters, you detect a target first, put yourself in a position that you can't be detected and get closer to the target to identify it first, because the radar don't tell you automatically if it is a friend or a foe. IAF learned this lesson during Red Flag, when our MKIs with limited AWACS guidance shot down friendly fighters, because they only knew the direction of a possible target, not what kind of target it was. So even if you can detect a target at several 100 Km and even if you have a BVR missile that can reach long distances, you will not attack until the target is identified as an opponent. Not to mention, that the earlier a missile is launched, the more time the target has to counter it, by maneuvers, or countermesures, which means the earlier you shoot, the lower the kill probability!


    The times of dedicated CAS aircrafts like the A10 are gone! Today combat helicopters and multi role fighters can do especially the anti tank role as well and the future is UAVs and UCAVs! An armed UAV with HELINA missiles, or small PGMs, can stay in a specified area for hours, with even more weapons and can attack tank groups way before they reach their targets. So there is no need of a new manned CAS fighter anymore, imo the following is more than enough:

    - Dhruv WSI
    - LCH
    - LCA with Sudharshan, AASM and HELINA
    - armed Heron, or Rustom UAVs with Lahat, or HELINA
    - Rafale with AASM 125, Brimstone, or HELINA



    Not possible, China will always have numerical superiority, all that MMRCA offers is increased air defence and strike capability, especially preemptive strike behind enemy borders.


    Wrt V22, it can hover and turn like any other helicopter as well and a rotor on the tail doesn't make sense, because you would close the only way that is open to enter the aircraft. The rotors at the side makes it impossible to have similar side doors like normal helicopters has, that's why the ramp at the back is for:

     
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  5. A haseeb A

    A haseeb A Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I think HAL is leap-frogging with the AMCA...they haven't designed a modern aircraft which was highly succesful.IMO,AMCA won't be inducted before 2025-2030.
     
  6. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    They are capable of making a 5th gen bird... R&D already started... they can use knowledge and experience from PAK FA and LCA project.

    IMHO they should focus efforts on LCA Mk first, but who knows maybe they'll see a quicker deal with AMCA...
    Any chance of foreign assistance on AMCA project? apologies folks, I haven't been keeping up with AMCA project.
     
  7. Sanjeeb Bose

    Sanjeeb Bose Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    I do not think the AMCA will take that long.. it will be ready by 2018 for user testing and induction by 2020 & thereafter... HAL plate are full... I donot know how they are going to manage so many things... FGFA, AMCA, Helicopters, transport aircraft etc etc...Gov must invite the private players for sharing the production responsibilities....

    I may sound bit naive ... but trust me HAL is learning very fast from their mistakes.. They took a very hard beating in LCA... but are going very good in many areas & joint ventures... The present Kaveri engine with 80 KN with some improvement will go into the AMCA that will be a great achievement for a country who do have experience in building automobile engines... HAL is learning and definitely learning fast.
     
  8. A haseeb A

    A haseeb A Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Also,what is the point of making 5th gen AMCA when they already will be having 5th gen FGFA(which is a joint venture)?
     
  9. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    self-sufficiency is gold...

    India needs it's own aircraft industry, and needs to catch up to other too.
    It makes sense and wise decision to have AMCA project up and running, it gives them the chance to use knowledge from PAK FA, perhaps have some tenders for foreign Russian or Western avionics to power AMCA, they have the power to do this via MMRCA.
     
  10. Sanjeeb Bose

    Sanjeeb Bose Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    You are right some of the key technologies such as stealth, design concepts learned from PAK-FA / FGFA will go directly into the AMCA and HAL was working on it for sometime now...

    As far as the LCA is concerned the LCA Mark-II will be a very good fighter with GE-414N6 engine with better thrust. I do not think we not be able to start the full production by 2016 onward.. and IAF is looking for 160 - 180 of those.

    Actually we Indians have a very peculiar mind set.. we want to do all from ground zero up.. something like inventing the wheel... We want to achieve a capability to design every facet of Fighter design.. sometimes it is good sometime we had bad result...
     
  11. Sanjeeb Bose

    Sanjeeb Bose Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Actually India in a middle of a situation where it is getting technology from all sources Russian, French, Israel, British ... Absorbing those technologies will be a very serious challenge to HAL... For AMCA HAL is in middle of development of own Avionics, AESA rader, EW Suite, missile system & engine.. If they can pull it through [which they will] be a great achievement on aircraft design.
     
  12. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    Air-Dominance over the Sub-Continent and power projecting
    beyond to the extend of our trade routes and supply lines.
     
  13. Jungibaaz

    Jungibaaz Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    agreed but you've got them right where you want em! Western markets are open and MMRCA perks are chance not to be missed...
    sure it will take some work, but it's worth the hassle.
     
  14. smestarz

    smestarz Lt. Colonel REGISTERED

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    Guys, would it be possible to have a the following platform?

    a) Twin Engine V-22 type craft platform (not a helicopter)
    b) Strong Airframe,
    c) Fast firing 100mm naval gun firing at say 60-120 rounds per min,

    and the aircraft able to carry abt 480 of these 100 mm shells and be able to deliver it to them on enemy position from distance of say 20 miles (this part shud be easy as the craft is flying at a height of say 5,000 - 20,000 ft
    Does anyone feel that this project is possible airborne artillery CAS ?
     
  15. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Not at this point, they have way too less experience and know how and we still struggle with major problems in design, radar and engine fields. This is actually not surprising by the fact that we are a beginner in the fighter development field, but is also created by bad planning in the LCA development. The fact that ADA/DRDO now want to push AMCA, before LCA MK2 is nowhere near to be ready and operational, just shows that they do the same mistakes again. Not to forget that the FGFA development was fixed just some month ago and there is no Indian involvement in T50/Pak Fa development, so we couldn't gain from that so far!

    Besides, AMCA today is driven by national pride, not by operational need! There is no reason to have a 2nd stealth fighter in IAF (especially with the same features like FGFA), when we get FGFA and LCA, MMRCA and MKI will server next to it for at least 30 years. It is neither required to replace fighters (FGFA will replace M2K, remaining Mig 27/29 and Jags in numbers, while MMRCAs will take over most of their roles), nor would it make IAF way more capable in the strike role, because FGFA will have the same advantages. The addition of AURA UCAV next to FGFA would make way more sense for IAF, because it gets a cost-effective and low risk deep strike plattform, that could be even used in combination with FGFA (FGFA WSO controls AURA via SATCOM datalinks).

    Foreign assistance is likely, but mainly on privat basis so far, I don't see India looking for partner countries (which is sad), nor are there many countries that can afford, or need 5th gen fighters. Israel is limited by the US, Japan has their own plans, just like S. Korea and most of Europe is already bound to F35. Imo S. Africa and Brazil would be good choices, with the relations we have from BRICS, but that would be a big step and at the moment there is too much focus on "indigenous" development = doing everything on our own, regardless of delays, or waste of money.
     
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