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Why Anna Hazare is wrong and Lok Pal a bad idea.

Discussion in 'National Politics' started by shans, Aug 19, 2011.

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  1. shans

    shans 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Don’t fall for the miracle cure that is being offered. Corruption must be fought differently and it’s not easy.

    1. Is Lok Pal is necessary to fight corruption?
    No, not only is it unnecessary, it will make the problem worse. Corruption in India arises because of too much government, too many rules, too much complexity and too much ambiguity. Adding one more, huge, powerful layer to an already complex system will make the system even more complicated. Complexity creates the incentives for corruption–both on the part of the bribe giver and the bribe taker.

    See my article on why Jan Lok Pal is no solution and Amba Salelkar’s article in Pragati.

    1A. Is the government’s version of the Lok Pal bill better?
    No. We don’t need a Lok Pal at all. Making existing constitutional institutions—like CAG, CVC, CBI and the Election Commission—more independent will serve the purpose equally well. If we have been unable to prevent the politicisation and undermining of these instutitions why would we be able to prevent the Lok Pal from being politicised and undermined? If we can prevent Lok Pal from being politicised and undermined, why can’t we restore the independence and credibility of CAG, CVC, CBI and the Election Commission?

    2. What’s the alternative to Lok Pal then?

    The alternative is to proceed with second-generation reforms, or Reforms 2.0. Contrary to conventional wisdom reforms have reduced corruption, albeit by moving it to higher up the government. In 1989 an ordinary person would have to pay a bribe to get a telephone connection. By 2005, there was no need to pay a bribe at all and anyone could get a phone in minutes. Yes, 2010 saw the 2G scam in telecoms, but that was because the UPA government reversed the reform process.

    In fact, data show that perceptions of corruption are lower in some sectors of the economy, usually those that have been liberalised.

    If you are interested in exploring real alternatives, you can start by reading Atanu Dey’s slim, easily readable and inexpensive new book, “Transforming Indiaâ€.

    3. Doesn’t Hong Kong have an Ombudsman and doesn’t it enjoy low corruption?

    This is a specious argument. There is little evidence to prove that Hong Kong has low corruption because it has an Ombudsman. On the contrary, there is empirical evidence from across the world suggesting that countries with high economic freedom are perceived to suffer from less corruption.

    Hong Kong is one of the freest economies of the world, and therefore, incentives for government officials to be corrupt are relatively low. The Ombudsman is useful to address the residual corruption in economic sectors and in sectors like law enforcement that do not have discretionary powers over economic sectors.

    4. How can we have economic reforms if the corrupt politicians don’t allow it?
    We have not really demanded them at all, actually. If we did, they are bound to register in the national political agenda. We should persuade politicians that their political future is linked to implementing economic reforms.


    5. Easy to say, but how can we do this?
    By voting. The constituencies that stand to benefit from economic reforms—the middle class—needs to vote in larger numbers. In the absence of the middle class vote base, politicians appease the poor by giving handouts and entitlements, and cater to the super rich by allowing the crony sector to exploit the half-reformed economy. It’s not easy, and we have to be innovative. See for instance, Atanu Dey’s interesting idea to form middle-class vote banks to induce good governance.

    Whatever may be the claims made by the people promoting Lok Pal, there is no miracle solution. They are peddling miracle weight-loss pills. Sadly, such pills usually don’t work and can cause severe damage to your health. If you are cautioned not to take those pills, you can’t ask “which other miracle weight-loss pill do you recommend� The answer is in diet and exercise, which is hard work.

    6. In the meantime, what’s wrong with Jan Lok Pal?
    This question has already been answered above, but it’s usual to encounter it again at this stage. The problem with Jan Lok Pal is that it’ll make the problem worse. Does anyone seriously think we can hire tens of thousands of absolutely honest officials who will constitute the Lok Pal? Who will keep watch on them? Maybe we need a Super Lok Pal, and then a Hyper Lok Pal to watch over the Super Lok Pal and so on…This isn’t sarcasm, this is the logical extension of the Lok Pal argument.

    7. Don’t we have the right to protest peacefully? Why do you say that a fast-until-death lacks legitimacy?
    Of course we have the right to protest peacefully. But it’s not about whether we have the right or not. It’s about are we using that right wisely. (You have the freedom of speech but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to blast Eminem using a loudspeaker at 2am in a residential district.)

    As Ambedkar said while introducing the Constitution in November 1949, once the Constitution came into force, we should avoid all non-constitutional methods like protests and satyagraha, for they are the grammar of anarchy. If two persons go on fasts until death for two opposing reasons, we cannot decide the issue by allowing one person to die first.

    Fast until death is political blackmail. It is a form of theatre engaged in to coerce the government into doing something that the agitators want. Whatever may be the cause, a single person cannot be allowed to dictate laws to the whole nation.

    8. Doesn’t Anna Hazare have the right to fast until death?
    Anna Hazare has the right to protest peacefully. However to the extent that his actions amount to an attempt to commit suicide, they are illegal. The government can legitimately prevent him from killing himself whatsoever the reason he might have to attempt suicide.

    9. You are an armchair intellectual. Shouldn’t we trust activists more?
    Pilots don’t design aircraft. Practicing doctors don’t discover new drugs and treatments. These jobs are usually done by armchair intellectuals. So being an armchair intellectual is not a disqualification.

    You shouldn’t trust intellectuals or activists because of what they are. You should examine their arguments and make your own judgement. Most of the people supporting Lok Pal have not examined what the proposal is, have not tried to consider opposing arguments and blindly accept it as a solution because some famous people said so.

    11. Aren’t those who oppose Anna Hazare’s agitation supporting the corrupt politicians?
    No. It takes an enormous amount of arrogance to claim that Anna Hazare and his supporters have the exclusive hold on the right way to fight corruption.

    In the real world, it is foolish to expect 100% clean and non-corrupt politicians. The real world challenge is to achieve good governance with imperfect constitutions, imperfect institutions, imperfect leaders and imperfect citizens. This requires us to realise that individuals respond to incentives. If we remove incentives for taking or giving bribes, then corruption will be lowered. We can reduce incentives for corruption by following through with the reforms that started in 1991 but have stalled since 2004.

    It is entirely possible to oppose the UPA government’s politics and policies, while recognising that it is the legitimately constituted government of the country. Individuals and parties might suffer from a legitimacy deficit because of flagrant corruption, but the Government of India as an institution remains the legitimate authority to make policy decisions for the whole nation.

    12. Why is fasting illegitimate when Mahatma Gandhi used it in our struggle for independence from the British?
    There is a huge difference in context between 26th January 1950 when the Constitution of India came into force and the time before it.

    Mahatma Gandhi used civil disobedience against laws imposed on India by the British government. Indians had no say in how the laws were made and how they were implemented. Indians could not repeal laws we didn’t want. Civil disobedience was justified in this context.

    Gandhi also used it to coerce Indian nationalist leaders too, including Ambedkar and the Indian National Congress, into accepting his views. Whatever might be the wisdom of Gandhi’s intentions, this was undemocratic and created a culture of ‘high command’ that lives on to this day. Fasting was not justified in this context. This part of Gandhi receives little attention in the dominant narrative of Indian history.

    With the formation of the Republic of India on 26 January 1950, things changed profoundly. All Indians have a say in how laws are made and how they are implemented. We can amend or repeal laws that we do not like. There is, of course, a method to do this, which must be followed. These are the constitutional methods that Ambedkar referred to in his grammar of anarchy speech. When constitutional methods are available, there is no case for non-constitutional methods like satyagraha or hunger strikes.

    There is thus no equivalence between Gandhi’s satyagraha against the British ruling us and Mr Hazare’s hunger strikes against we ruling ourselves.

    Source : The Acorn » FAQ: Why Anna Hazare is wrong and Lok Pal a bad idea
     
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  2. rcscwc

    rcscwc Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    You may be right. But I do not agree.

    Why not make a presentation before the Standing Committe?
     
  3. JanjaWeed

    JanjaWeed Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    WHY ANNA HAZARE IS RIGHT & LOKPAL IS A GOOD IDEA!!

    10 things to know about Anna Hazare 'n Jan Lok Pal Bill.. !

    1. Who is Anna Hazare?

    An ex-army man. Fought 1965 Indo-Pak War



    2. What's so special about him?

    He built a village Ralegaon Siddhi in Ahamad Nagar district, Maharashtra



    3. So what?

    This village is a self-sustained model village. Energy is produced in the village itself from solar power, biofuel and wind mills.

    In 1975, it used to be a poverty clad village. Now it is one of the richest village in India. It has become a model for self-sustained, eco-friendly & harmonic village.



    4. Ok,...?

    This guy, Anna Hazare was awarded Padma Bhushan and is a known figure for his social activities.



    5. Really, what is he fighting for?

    He is supporting a cause, the amendment of a law to curb corruption in India.



    6. How that can be possible?

    He is advocating for a Bil, The Jan Lokpal Bill (The Citizen Ombudsman Bill), that will form an autonomous authority who will make politicians (ministers), beurocrats (IAS/IPS) accountable for their deeds.



    8. It's an entirely new thing right..?

    In 1972, the bill was proposed by then Law minister Mr. Shanti Bhushan. Since then it has been neglected by the politicians and some are trying to change the bill to suit thier theft (corruption).



    7. Oh.. He is going on a hunger strike for that whole thing of passing a Bill ! How can that be possible in such a short span of time?

    The first thing he is asking for is: the government should come forward and announce that the bill is going to be passed.

    Next, they make a joint committee to DRAFT the JAN LOKPAL BILL. 50% goverment participation and 50% public participation. Because you cant trust the government entirely for making such a bill which does not suit them.



    8. Fine, What will happen when this bill is passed?

    A LokPal will be appointed at the centre. He will have an autonomous charge, say like the Election Commission of India. In each and every state, Lokayukta will be appointed. The job is to bring all alleged party to trial in case of corruptions within 1 year. Within 2 years, the guilty will be punished. Not like, Bofors scam or Bhopal Gas Tragedy case, that has been going for last 25 years without any result.



    9. Is he alone? Whoelse is there in the fight with Anna Hazare?

    Baba Ramdev, Ex. IPS Kiran Bedi, Social Activist Swami Agnivesh, RTI activist Arvind Kejriwal and many more.

    Prominent personalities like Aamir Khan is supporting his cause.



    10. Ok, got it. What can I do?

    At least we can spread the message. How?

    Putting status message, links, video, changing profile pics.



    At least we can support Anna Hazare and the cause for uprooting corruption from India.

    At least we can hope that his Hunger Strike does not go in vain.

    At least we can pray for his good health.



    Thanks for reading.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2011
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  4. uptotrix

    uptotrix Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    All we need is one corrupt among 16K lokpal workers and the entire purpose of this bill will be destroyed, it'll be like another commission like cvc without credibility.
     
  5. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    In principle I agree with the article. Govt should exit sectors such as power, railways, banking etc. and, instead of providing those services, focus on becoming strong regulator. This will wipe out petty corruption. When the total population of govt employees comes down, the lopal can be VERY effective in monitoring the fewer people who are left.
     
  6. DaRk KnIght

    DaRk KnIght Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Are you sure with the Railways part?
     
  7. Osiris

    Osiris Major SENIOR MEMBER

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    more corporates (private players) means more corruption ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2011
  8. Mr.Ryu

    Mr.Ryu Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Anna Hazare who has no GANDHI in his name is more Gandhian and trustworthy than Raul Gandhi and co who has Gandhi in their name. This is the best eg of NAMESAKE

    Bro please stop acting soooo negative as congress does it's funny how people dont even want to try but busy in branding Lokpal will not succeed.
     
  9. Galaxy

    Galaxy Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    1 lokpal/lokayut person can't do anything. You need to read more.

    But 1 Rahul Gandhi can destroy our whole country that is for sure.
     
  10. Kronus

    Kronus Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    In a nation of more than 1.2 billion citizen there can be great difference of opinions. I take this thread as none other. Some points put up may be worth considering though.
     
  11. Night_Raven

    Night_Raven FULL MEMBER

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    This bill is very much needed to counter govt like the current one which rubbishes CVC reports & accuses it of over-reach , involves in personal mud-slinging against all dissenting voices , keeps CBI under its thumb.

    We have got RTI to unearth corruption , now question is : How to go forward and punish the guilty ?

    The answer is Lokpal.
     
  12. uptotrix

    uptotrix Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Punishing the corrupt doesn't serve as a deterrent against corruption.
     
  13. DaRk KnIght

    DaRk KnIght Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Exactly. Let us discuss this issue in a constrictive manner. :cheers:
     
  14. Galaxy

    Galaxy Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Jan Lok Pal is the best solution to control Corruption. No one said, JLB will make corrupt free India. Not possible. It can control 60%-70% which is fair enough than 0%. Isn't it ?There are many clauses and conditions within JLB to make it effective. UPA lokpal will not make 0% effect, if you read UPA lokpal or i say Jokepal.

    Gov. LP is JokePal. 50% important top authorities are not even included like PM, CBI, Judiciary, MP and so on. Even they included NGO's so that they can't raise voice against the corrupt government in future. Punishment, process, Fear is negligible in Gov. version.

    A SC/HC Judge can't be blamed for corruption is previous system. 3 Judges (3 Comrades of so called Corrupt Judge will decide to file the FIR against Corrupt Judge). means 3 friends will decide to go against 4th one who is corrupt. A Ridiculous System.

    75% MPs are corrupt, So corrupt that they take bribe to ask question in Parliament. They cut 25%+ as bribe for development work in their constituency.

    1,000's of top officials has been blamed for Corruption in last few decades. What happened ? Nothing. 99% are Free and still enjoying Power and Money even in better way. 1% are gone with with no Evidence. Bofors Scam. Nothing happened.

    This JLP of Anna and it's team is Not only good but It's best possible answer.

    Few people are saying "Misuse". It won't. It's team work. It's process with all evidence and proofs. Fast process. Yes leaders like Raja would say in any case "I am not corrupt" But with all evidence, He is a Culprit and will be punished within 6-12 months. Life sentence. Also, Whatever money he bribed - he would return back by various possibilities. Even Snatching his House to Wife owned properties, Jewellery, Acs, etc.

    Few people are also saying "PM" should not come under JLB. Why ?? 99% Indians normally never say our PM is corrupt. For last 13 years, Both PM - AB Vajpayess and SMS were considered as honest PM. But what if tomorrow Sharad Pawar, Lalu Yadav or Mayawait becomes Next PM ? Can we trust these leaders ? No. There must be some law which can check PM too.

    In Short, Jan LokPal is best solution to reduce corruption. 80%-90% are supporting this bill. May be few don't know details about the bill. But There are lots of people who actually know everything. There will be always 10%-20% people who will oppose of everything because either they are paid or they don't like the person who doing all this or they think differently.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
  15. DaRk KnIght

    DaRk KnIght Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    In our country punishment actually serves as a good deterrent.
     
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