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Why Anna Hazare is wrong and Lok Pal a bad idea.

Discussion in 'National Politics' started by shans, Aug 19, 2011.

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  1. uptotrix

    uptotrix Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Give me one or two examples. Every problem has a root cause directly related to socio-economic and cultural practices of this country.
     
  2. Galaxy

    Galaxy Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    What a ridiculous logic. lol

    Punishing the corrupt is the only solution. You want to say corrupt people like Raja, Sibal, Kalmadi should not be punished ? :lol:

    Strict Laws --> Less Corruption --> Those who found corrupt in spite of strict law by autonomous body will face more faster Enquiry --> More Strict Punishment in less time --> Again Less Corruption.

    60%-70% corruption will be reduced after few years of implementation. By Government Lok Pal corruption will increase only as corrupt leaders will only decide what to do with corruption.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
  3. uptotrix

    uptotrix Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Having strict laws is only counter productive, the government becomes oppressive like China- where anyone who protests will be shot by a firing squad. Just as death sentence doesn't serve as a deterrent against crime, similarly punishing the corrupt will not eliminate corruption in the country. Instead you should address the underlying problems which might tempt people to break the law.
     
  4. Galaxy

    Galaxy Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Not a Single politician has been punished severely even found involved in corruption.

    Bofors Scam. What happened after so many years ?? Zero result. A Classic Example of Corruption went under the carpet. Hail to Corrupt Congress.
     
  5. Galaxy

    Galaxy Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Don't mislead the people.

    The Punishment is "Life Sentence" and not "Death".

    Even Life Sentence will come after complete evidence, court trial, Right to defend and so on. Only Corrupt person will be behind bar. In Addition, There will be group of 100 of people who will do verification to prove the evidence in all details.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
  6. DaRk KnIght

    DaRk KnIght Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Domestic Violence Act.
     
  7. DaRk KnIght

    DaRk KnIght Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    because death sentence is rarely given.
     
  8. uptotrix

    uptotrix Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    That doesn't mean it eliminated domestic violence. Laws and Crime both go hand in hand until you address the problem.
     
  9. uptotrix

    uptotrix Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    In US they give death sentences every month, it is still one of the dangerous countries to live in.
     
  10. Galaxy

    Galaxy Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    This is the law to address the problem. First read the Jan Lok Pal before posting. Post your points which is not good, then it would be better to reply.
     
  11. uptotrix

    uptotrix Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I've read both the bills- it doesn't address the problem. If you want to pick a fight you are most welcome. I'm only trying to be constructive.
     
  12. Galaxy

    Galaxy Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Deficiencies in the present anti-corruption systems Central Government level

    At central Government level, there is Central Vigilance Commission, Departmental vigilance and CBI. CVC and Departmental vigilance deal with vigilance (disciplinary proceedings) aspect of a corruption case and CBI deals with criminal aspect of that case.

    Central Vigilance Commission: CVC is the apex body for all vigilance cases in Government of India.

    However, it does not have adequate resources commensurate with the large number of complaints that it receives. CVC is a very small set up with a staff strength less than 200. It is supposed to check corruption in more than 1500 central government departments and ministries, some of them being as big as Central Excise, Railways, Income Tax etc. Therefore, it has to depend on the vigilance wings of respective departments and forwards most of the complaints for inquiry and report to them. While it monitors the progress of these complaints, there is delay and the complainants are often disturbed by this. It directly enquires into a few complaints on its own, especially when it suspects motivated delays or where senior officials could be implicated. But given the constraints of manpower, such number is really small.

    CVC is merely an advisory body. Central Government Departments seek CVC’s advice on various corruption cases. However, they are free to accept or reject CVC’s advice. Even in those cases, which are directly enquired into by the CVC, it can only advise government. CVC mentions these cases of non-acceptance in its monthly reports and the Annual Report to Parliament. But these are not much in focus in Parliamentary debates or by the media.
    Experience shows that CVC’s advice to initiate prosecution is rarely accepted and whenever CVC advised major penalty, it was reduced to minor penalty. Therefore, CVC can hardly be treated as an effective deterrent against corruption.

    CVC cannot direct CBI to initiate enquiries against any officer of the level of Joint Secretary and above on its own. The CBI has to seek the permission of that department, which obviously would not be granted if the senior officers of that department are involved and they could delay the case or see to it that permission would not be granted.

    CVC does not have powers to register criminal case. It deals only with vigilance or disciplinary matters.
    It does not have powers over politicians. If there is an involvement of a politician in any case, CVC could at best bring it to the notice of the Government. There are several cases of serious corruption in which officials and political executive are involved together.
    It does not have any direct powers over departmental vigilance wings. Often it is seen that CVC forwards a complaint to a department and then keeps sending reminders to them to enquire and send report. Many a times, the departments just do not comply. CVC does not have any really effective powers over them to seek compliance of its orders.

    CVC does not have administrative control over officials in vigilance wings of various central government departments to which it forwards corruption complaints. Though the government does consult CVC before appointing the Chief Vigilance Officers of various departments, however, the final decision lies with the government. Also, the officials below CVO are appointed/transferred by that department only. Only in exceptional cases, if the CVO chooses to bring it to the notice of CVC, CVC could bring pressure on the Department to revoke orders but again such recommendations are not binding.
    Appointments to CVC are directly under the control of ruling political party, though the leader of the Opposition is a member of the Committee to select CVC and VCs. But the Committee only considers names put up before it and that is decided by the Government. The appointments are opaque.
    CVC Act gives supervisory powers to CVC over CBI. However, these supervisory powers have remained ineffective. CVC does not have the power to call for any file from CBI or to direct them to do any case in a particular manner. Besides, CBI is under administrative control of DOPT rather than CVC.
    Therefore, though CVC is relatively independent in its functioning, it neither has resources nor powers to enquire and take action on complaints of corruption in a manner that meets the expectations of people or act as an effective deterrence against corruption.

    Departmental Vigilance Wings: Each Department has a vigilance wing, which is manned by officials from the same department (barring a few which have an outsider as Chief Vigilance Officer. However, all the officers under him belong to the same department).

    Since the officers in the vigilance wing of a department are from the same department and they can be posted to any position in that department anytime, it is practically impossible for them to be independent and objective while inquiring into complaints against their colleagues and seniors. If a complaint is received against a senior officer, it is impossible to enquire into that complaint because an officer who is in vigilance today might get posted under that senior officer some time in future.

    In some departments, especially in the Ministries , some officials double up as vigilance officials. It means that an existing official is given additional duty of vigilance also. So, if some citizen complaints against that officer, the complaint is expected to be enquired into by the same officer. Even if someone complaints against that officer to the CVC or to the Head of that Department or to any other authority, the complaint is forwarded by all these agencies and it finally lands up in his own lap to enquire against himself. Even if he recuses himself from such inquiries , still they have to be handled by those who otherwise report to him. There are indeed examples of such absurdity.
    There have been instances of the officials posted in vigilance wing by that department having had a very corrupt past. While in vigilance, they try to scuttle all cases against themselves. They also turn vigilance wing into a hub of corruption, where cases are closed for consideration.
    Departmental vigilance does not investigate into criminal aspect of any case. It does not have the powers to register an FIR.
    They also do not have any powers against politicians.
    Since the vigilance wing is directly under the control of the Head of that Department, it is practically impossible for them to enquire against senior officials of that department.
    Therefore, , the vigilance wing of any department is seen to softpedal on genuine complaints or used to enquire against " inconvenient" officers.

    CBI: CBI has powers of a police station to investigate and register FIR. It can investigate any case related to a Central Government department on its own or any case referred to it by any state government or any court.

    CBI is overburdened and does not accept cases even where amount of defalcation is alleged to be around Rs 1 crore.
    CBI is directly under the administrative control of Central Government.
    So, if a complaint pertains to any minister or politician who is part of a ruling coalition or a bureaucrat who is close to them, CBI's credibility has suffered and there is increasing public perception that it cannot do a fair investigation and that it is influenced to to scuttle these cases.
    Again, because CBI is directly under the control of Central Government, CBI is perceived to have been often used to settle scores against inconvenient politicians.
    Therefore, if a citizen wants to make a complaint about corruption by a politician or an official in the Central Government, there isn’t a single anti-corruption agency which is effective and independent of the government, whose wrongdoings are sought to be investigated. CBI has powers but it is not independent. CVC is independent but it does not have sufficient powers or resources.
     
  13. Galaxy

    Galaxy Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Could you care to post which point is not addressing the problem and how Gov. LokPal is fine ? I will reply. Don't post "It's not". Give your point so that one can reply. I hope it's fine for better discussion.

    You are trolling without a single point......Post your point for discussion. then it would be better.
     
  14. uptotrix

    uptotrix Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    You are rampantly supporting this movement without weighing the pros and cons. You believe this bill is going to root out corruption, I've never seen so blindly stupid assumption like yours. Masses are easy to manipulate whether it's Gandhi or hitler, both inspired people for different causes, but people are easily taken in by the power of words.
     
  15. Galaxy

    Galaxy Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    Another same kind of post as usual. I think you don't have any single point to say. I know all pros and cons. I still support 100%.

    It's not assumption, It's real possibility. I said it will solve 60%-70% corruption which is fair enough than 0%. Isn't it ? or what you suggest corruption should continue like this ?? We should just sit tight and allow Joke Pal where not a single concern is addressed. what addressed are not important and will be decided by corrupt official.

    Forget about masses, I know what is right. If you think, This Law is wrong. prove it but don't troll

    Make a Big Lie, Make it Simple, Keep repeating it and everyone will believe it - Adolf Hitler. (This is what congress doing for last 64 years). They are S!ck !@##$%^&^*.
     
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