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Why India’s Tejas MK-2 might have Israel’s Lavi fate due American lobbying!

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by lca-fan, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

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    I would normally not reply to such an answer, but let's assume you are looking for a sane discussion.
    I am happy that I was not labelled a sellout Indian.

    The Indian MIC has gained experience in working with composites, making a working engine(that it does not meet current requirements is a different argument), written the flight control rules, learning how materials will behave, getting the systems to work together and knowing what seems to work and what does not in aircraft development.

    India has definitely got better over the years wrt airframe, integration of components. But the overall stage is Learning.

    Blaming US and Russia or anybody is not going to solve any problem. Which is why we need our fighter. The Chinese did not get to the J 20 by simply buying Russian planes. They put money, bought Russian engineers or stole plans. It took them more than 4 decades for this and billions in development.

    India has only given 4 decades but not the billions. You give HAL billions only in order they will make the rafale out of tejas.

    Aircraft numbers can be ramped up. Without the Americans. The F-16 will require a complete supply chain to be built from scratch. And its going to cost. If you think, that its going to be cheap, you have something coming. Dassault already has started setting up factories for the Rafale. The Tejas MK1A can be built by getting either Dassault or SAAB to step in. Problem is in taking the decision. We need the Tejas to be a point defence fighter with limited multi role capability. No Indian made F-16 can enter the IAF before 2025. Its impossible. That is the earliest. By then we can get 10 squadrons of Tejas up. And get economies of scale, while investing in better development.

    F16's were stopped been made just yesterday (metaphorically). Also they are not killing the line just moving it (itself in US). F16's are going to be cheaper than anything out there by russians or french, european or swedes. They are definitely going to be costlier than tejas or JF17 :haha:. F16 can start rolling out from 2022-23 time and I am not talking existing blocks; F16V India specified. It comes with the latest radar, friend foe identification, battle management scenario, multilink bandwidth etc. I would want to mention engine but that would be very hard to negotiate (can be since the only users but very hard since kaveri is not working).

    There are no fools to sell tech. There are businessmen. They will ask for the price. Now, here is the deal. LM and Boeing are not going to give you tech. That is a given. Russians, maybe. France and Sweden. They will negotiate. So negotiate. Get them to help with the design. This is something the Chinese did not have. The French and Swedes are happy to provide tech for a piece of the pie. Give them piece of the pie.

    F16's are only coming if tech is coming otherwise a NO. Boeing is not in contention since I am very against FA-18.
    Russians will give knock down kits.
    French will sell you stuff only. Technology comes at a prices that it better not come. $40 billion for 126 rafales or the matri program
    Sweden has already chosen their soulmate with Brazil after MMRCA was lost by them and Brazil had locked guarantees on some parts to be built in Brazil for the lifecycle along with technology transfer. Also this limits the tejas prospects and will be regarded as a preferred surrogate to Tejas since they share engine and other characteristics.

    In all nobody wants to leave their cash cow for you to milk.

    Americans have the least experience in milking the cow so they can be given a chance only if they give what we want. Under DTTI, they have taken the French route of offering roles for joint development but that too in the infantry vehicle and other land based system that are not on the priority list. F16 will not be an easy negotiation; India can enjoy the fact that F16's don't have any new buyers but americans will not give their priced possession for the sake of calling India friend.

    I am going to look like a tejas basher but I am not. I wholeheartedly support the program but my expectations have been lowered over the years.


    The planes can be got ready. If decisions are taken to introduce a technology partner.

    India has already put the new strategic partnership policy. The JV have been formed as well with the "Technology partners". Now they are developing jack nothing rather giving mouth service that they are waiting for orders (for a platform that is flying in ideas).

    Give me one example of the Americans helping non NATO allies in case of crisis. Just one. If they develop better relations with China or Pakistan, all this nonsense of strategic alliance will go for a toss. By the way, has the F-16 managed to take of from Leh yet? NO. So we cannot use them in that sector. Guess which tiny plane can?

    Get The F16V indianised version, try it test it and then order (bigger) it. Not strategic relevance wrt to US should be a concern but yes an added advantage pakistan loosing on F16's and JF17 is a slap in their face and they know it.

    My only suggestion is have realistic requirements.Not like the following, It takes a lot of fuel, thuk te chala lo. We have desert in rajasthan (boundary with pakistan) so should be able to land in desert or landing strip required should be small since our children's playground are smaller. This has led to the mismanagement of Tejas in the past.
     
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  2. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    The one has nothing to do with the other, nor does the PM have any leverage to force Indian forces to Tejas, see IN.

    IAF as you said correctly wanted more Tejas, but only with the problems fixed! That's why the engine tender and MK2 concepts were started. But an MK2 production varient, would only be available in several years, because of the major design changes and that would make HALs production line run out when the 40 MK1s are produced. IAF therefore suggested to market MK1 for foreign customers, to add orders and keep the line running, till MK2 can be available, which of course doesn't work. So the only compromise to IAF and HAL was, MK1A! A version of the MK1 with less demanding changes, but still fixing enough issues that IAF found and that could start production right after MK1.

    The MK2 will come later for sure, the only question is, if there will be new production orders, or just upgrades of the existing fleet.

    Wrt the Lavi issue, it was in the same class as F16s, therefore was direct competition that the US blocked. Tejas is a class below MMRCAs and will always have it's own requirement. Just as MMRCAs will not compete with AMCA, which will eventually replace Su 30 MKIs when the time comes. So just another IDRW article with no merit.
     
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  3. Anish

    Anish Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    F-16 brings in more tech than Su-57 for starters.

    Point is IAF needs light combat aircraft for frontline airbases with low logistical footprint

    We have been getting "tech" for multiple Mig 21 variants, Mig 23, 27, Jaguars, Su30's

    All tech paid for

    All tech washed down the drain by HAL which has failed to make even IJT-36 Sitara.

    If a Mirage 3 copy the Tejas (Downgraded weaponry for export by Dassault)cannot be assembled in over 50 years the Modi government is right is burying the Tejas like Trishul, Naval Tejas and Kaveri then further proceeding to procure F-16V/GripenE
     
  4. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    One simple question. Does the F-16 take off from all operational bases in the country. Answer is no.

    Please do tell me what tech does the F-16 bring which we do not have. Please state approved for transfer. Low logistical footprint is not the F-16. Please explain how its going to be low logisitical footprint? What is the cost going to be for this low logistical foot print.

    Comparing tech agreements of the pre 2010 era to tech agreements of today is ridiculous. This is nothing but an attempt of Modi to make his Make in India dream a success by putting national security at risk of American interference. Pakistan and Iran are clear cases of the same.

    Normally I would not say this. But you are talking out of your a$$ the minute you say, Tejas is a Mirage 3. It is quite evident you have a clear agenda of pushing the F-16, which is evident across both forums.

    Let me tell you this again. Till date, no American fighter has served in an active role in any non NATO airforce without the fear of sanctions. And you are talking of putting our entire air defence system under it?

    The point is it makes more sense to hire French, Russian or Swedish engineers to work on the project where we are finding it difficult to solve. Same thing the Chinese achieved. By pumping money into their projects. Why waste 12 BN USD on LM, when half of that can be spent on hiring engineers to work in conjunction with Indian engineers.
     
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  5. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    I agree that its important to have realistic assumptions. What we needed was a replacement for the Mig 21. Simple, cost effective fighter which is in numbers. I have been asking one simple question. Basic question. The F-16 till date has failed to take off from some operational air fields which will be critical during times of war.

    The problem is in operationalising the Tech agreements. If it requires to push HAL and get a private player by committing numbers, so be it. The current MK2 should be built with foreign collaboration in areas where we are not good. Look at the IN. They are building most of the ships in house and getting in what Indian industry cannot build from outside. Why is it, that the IAF is not able to do so? The answer is very simple. Funds. The IN had paucity of funds and they built things in house. The IAF on the other hand, here I tend to agree with vstol, does not do so for various reasons.

    The problem with the last part of your argument is order it and Indianise it. My argument is take the Tejas and Rafalise or Gripenise it, with help from foreign engineers. This thing of fully indigenous nonsense needs to stop.
     
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  6. WhyCry

    WhyCry Reaper Love Developers -IT and R&D

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    When you say foreign collaboration/engineers then its cooperation is limited. e.g Israel gave you elta 2032 to build uttam for the FCR now integration was HAL's job and we all know the progress on that. There is a lot of work involved to Rafalise and Gripenise it since you have multiple vendor from multiple nations (please don't forget the integration part either though it follows with maintenance and support). Secondly, the whole reason Tejas is an important part of the pillar is to make indigenous platform for IAF. Hal is developing some and importing some and then integrating them. If that has to be done by a 3rd party then its not required at all. It will uncheck the cost effectiveness and indigenous requirements. In all, Your Hawai taiyaar is not going to be ready by 2025. Also sometimes Elta 2052 comes up and then requirement changes:biggthumpup:.

    My suggestion is take working platform--->Indianise it ---> Indian Working Platform. Indianization is the only step where you can screw up hence I mention expectations. If I am not mistaken F16 did passed the Hot and cold altitude test for the UAE order (which has a newer engine). This will be an upstart for the Indian aerospace and aviation. It can be used to kickstart something Indian has been trying for so long but never accomplished due to obvious reasons.
     
  7. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Only one word answer, 'IPR'.
     
  8. Anish

    Anish Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Which country?

    Answer is no for which country?

    Compared to Su30mki the F16-B70 will have a much smaller logistical footprint which is why it is meant for replacing the frontline Mig 21,23,27.

    Same reason all Su30's are located more inland due to logistical reasons.

    Less to do with MII more to do with national security.

    Migs are flying beyond their age limits.
    We need a replacement today not tomorrow or 30-40 years hence when the mythicalTejas Mk2 which is presently undesigned passes FOC hypothetically unless it is cancelled which is more a suitable option to Modi Govt.

    Agenda is to ensure a minimum credible conventinal detterent to China-Pakistan which is presently lacking.

    Tejas which was designed by Dassault in the 70's and 80's is a downgraded for export Mirage 3 with most of the downgrading done in form of weaponry. No gun and below minimum payload capacity.
    Other downgrades were combat radius and ferry range.

    Your point is to prolong a 50 year old failure.
    However you are neither Prime Minister, Defence Minister or Air Chief Marshal.
    You could bring in engineers from an alien world if you wished and induct a 1000 Tejas in your private air force however Indian Air Force much like Indian Navy will "REJECT" the Tejas.
     
  9. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    India. The F-16 has repeatedly failed take offs from high altitude air bases in India. Utter crap is what you are talking about Mirage 3. One o the first design of the Tejas was displayed and explained in the 1994 in IIT Bombay. More than 5 years on the forum and you speak rubbish like this. This is failure. Your explanation is like saying F-16 came from Wright brothers.

    Please read up before spousing utter nonsense. And do not quote me before reading.
     
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  10. Guynextdoor

    Guynextdoor Lt. Colonel SENIOR MEMBER

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    India has already rejected Thunder
     
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  11. Anish

    Anish Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    F-16 did not fare as well as twin engine competition in mrca like eurofighter, rafale, f18

    But itself has no problems in high altitude warfare.

    Tejas was doing taxi trials in 80's

    Design handed over on silver platter by Dassault in 70's.

    ADA only ruined it by making more changes
     
  12. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Can you back up your claims of 2 things

    1. The F-16 can operate from Indian High Altitude air bases
    2. Tejas was doing taxi trials in 80s

    Dude do not quote me again, if you are unable to answer the two questions.

    @Gessler @Hellfire @Agent_47 How in hell is this guy an elite member??????
     
  13. zebra7

    zebra7 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    By Blabbering and increasing the post counts.

    F-16 will comes with the limitation -- and what is being discussed here is the fear of sanctions or the permission of the US to be used it against US friendly nations, and this guy claiming it having small foot prints, will not mentioned the US only amunitions, equipments compulsory plus the US standard Base, Shelters for the warranty by its OEM's and is confused with the Dassault reviewing the Project defination of the LCA with the Mirage 2000 design, with zero knowledge of the FCS, which is Analog in Mirage 2000 and Digital in LCA, and is still a Kid to understand the difference between the Light weight and Middle weight combat plane, leave aside the Roles for which a designer design a particular plane.
     
  14. Anish

    Anish Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    1.
    IAF does not field a single fighter ac squadron on a permanent basis from any high altitude air base.

    Because it is not needed.

    For China it is the Saharanpur-Gorakhpur-Bagdogra belt which forms CAC slam attack formation.

    2.

    [​IMG]


    Anyhow it is time to rejoice as IAF Tejas meets fate as Indian Navy Tejas and thanks to Indian Navy another indigenous defence development is scuttled like Trishul SAM
     
  15. Rajaraja Chola

    Rajaraja Chola 2nd Lieutant FULL MEMBER

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    Yu dont decide the operational requirements of IAF. You should try to meet the requirement of ur clients(IAF) if you are pitching F16
     
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