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why not su-47 berkut??

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by he-man, Dec 30, 2013.

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  1. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    You are an idiot too. Read whose post I countered. And no I didn't talk about Rafale, I was talking about Super Hornet.
     
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  2. he-man

    he-man Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    its also a 4.5 gen like rafale and typhoon idiot
     
  3. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    Nope. The existing F/A-18E/F itself was labelled as 5th generation on Boeing & other
    OEMs' websites, the links are in the Typhoon v/s Rafale thread.

    [​IMG]

    What you should have neatly understood by now that manufacturer-released
    generation ranking is merely a marketing ploy and is inconstant and flawed 75% of
    the time.

    Here we have a person who argues his posts are very, very consistent. Weren't you
    the same fellow who said that upgrading or modifying a 4th/4.5 gen plane cannot make
    it a 5th gen plane?

    And now what is this? "lesser 5th gen plane", "true 5th gen plane"...just two words bro : BULL SHIT.

    Your posts are more inconstant than PAK-FA's underbelly. By this measure, even
    Raffy can be turned into a 5th gen plane with tech such as active cancellation, CFTs
    and stealthy weapon pods, in addition to all the RCS and IR signature-reduction methods
    it already has.
     
  4. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    [MENTION=10029]DragonFly[/MENTION]

    Look over here if you have the time bro. Our "consistent" brother has explained the meaning of the
    word "consistency" very clearly.
     
  5. he-man

    he-man Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    why is everyone after me??

    what wrong did i do?:fie:
     
  6. DragonFly

    DragonFly Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    That's something i posted YEARS ago, you noticed too, they didn't.

    either one inform oneself either one talks manure because this is the real world, not Startreak Eurofighter where i have been lurking in the back ground looking for links, the amount of revisionism is funny, people writting "essais" on aerodynamics, telling the opposite of E-F programme managers and the most eminent aerodynamicist speaks for itself...

    This is on so called Us 5th generation A/C
    www.csbaonline.org/wp.../02/2007.06.20-Fighter-Modernization.pdf‎
     
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  7. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    If possible look for a past post of mine where I said only countries and manufacturers who don't have a true 5th gen aircraft will call their 4.5th gen aircraft a 5th gen aircraft. Boeing falls in the latter category.

    See, consistency. I think I said this in the EF/Rafale thread.

    Also in my posts I said that I believe manufacturers when they claim they will make a proper 5th gen aircraft. Boeing and Dassault are not in that list for obvious reasons.

    Yes. You can't take a 4.5th gen aircraft and convert it to 5th gen. I still stand by that point. You have to design a 5th gen aircraft and both Rafale F4 and SH Block 3 are practically newly designed aircraft.

    Remember my post in the Su-35 thread where I pointed out that Sukhoi has made 4 or 5 different Flanker jets and sold them in the hundreds. It is the same thing here. SH B3 and Rafale F4 will practically be new aircraft types when ready. If they achieve very low RCS through airframe modifications, usage of RAM and IWPs, then they can call themselves 5th gen.

    See, consistency.

    Bullshit is one word, idiot.

    Su-35 has very low RCS, but it may not be in the negative decibels range like Rafale. That makes Su-35 lesser capable when it comes to RCS. The same will apply to Rafale F4 and PAKFA because by the time they try and make a Rafale F4, Sukhoi will have made a PAKFA Mk2 which is far more advanced than Rafale F4.

    PAKFA's belly is not inconsistent, just like my posts. Your understanding of my posts are what's inconsistent.
     
  8. he-man

    he-man Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    [MENTION=10029]DragonFly[/MENTION]

    whats ur take on su-47 vs pakfa

    no flame throwing pls,lets call it quits:evilgrin:
     
  9. DragonFly

    DragonFly Lieutenant SENIOR MEMBER

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    Because they are FAR from having the simulation capabilities they need to get their aerodynamics right.

    What i have seen from Sukoi disapoints me at this level from the Su onward, they have been unable to move away from the same formula and tried to add some US-inspired aerodynamic solution which worked or not, the point being, an A/C like the Mig-21 or project 1.41 at their time were a lot more innovative for them than she Sukoi design.
     
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  10. he-man

    he-man Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    its money man

    russia has no money compared to the stuff they had before 1991 breakup
     
  11. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    You literally proved that manufacturer-released claims are not consistent. If Sukhoi
    did not build PAK-FA and chose to develop Su-47 further, they would have called it
    (Su-47) 5th gen when it comes to production, despite even if this is the same aircraft
    which was to be termed as 4++ when they have another production plane which
    can actually be sold abroad under the tag "5th gen".

    When the manufacturers claim they have made a 5th gen plane, you will believe them, no?

    :disagree:

    Which is in direct contrast to your earlier quote:
    Consistency my foot.

    I wanted to be more explicit, hence divided them into 2 individual words. BULL and SHIT.

    Exactly. The term "5th gen" does not have a precise meaning. By that time, some manufacturer will add a new
    feature to F-22 or F-35 and call them 5.5 generation fighters. Despite the fact it's very much the same plane
    with addition of some new features.

    No you idiot. Where is the consistency in your bloody posts?

    1) You say a 5th gen aircraft is one that is designed to be 5th gen straight from the beginning.
    2) Then you say any 4th/4.5 gen aircraft can be made 5th gen by introducing airframe modifications and weapon pods.

    Where is the consistency in that? Do not give me your bull-shit.
     
  12. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    No. Then I would find it hard to believe because they themselves claimed Su-47 is not 5th gen even before PAKFA started.

    Basically when they started their program they claimed PAKFA will be a 5th gen aircraft with stealth, supercruise, IWBs and so on. Not very hard not to believe.

    There is nothing wrong in what I said.

    Did you forget that when Rafale F4 will be made it will have its own design stage, followed by LSP stage and production. That makes it a new aircraft. If it has 5th gen characteristics incorporated then it won't be a 4.5th gen aircraft anymore.

    When Mig-21 was upgraded to Bison standard, it did not have a design stage followed by prototype stage and LSP stage and production. It was just MLU. So, you can upgrade a 2nd gen aircraft with 4th gen avionics and call it 4th gen, but you can't do anything else to make it 5th gen. All current Rafales today cannot become 5th gen aircraft.

    Bull for me and Shit for you. I like to share.

    Avionics upgrades and unmanned option will give it a 5.5th gen tag. Even better if the aircraft undergoes a new design stage with more stealth and can handle better loads for extreme maneuverability above 12G. That should make it 5.5th gen.

    Everywhere. You are handicapped by your own comprehension of my posts.

    Sure, there is. Just like how Su-27 was upgraded to new standards and brought Su-35 to Rafale/EF level, eventually a new design program for Rafale can bring it to 5th gen standards. It can lose the vertical fin and replace it with two canted fins. It an carry IWPs and CFTs. It can carry new radar and EW equipment and so on.

    But whatever Rafales are available today can never become 5th gen aircraft. Whatever they do to MKI in the MLUs, it will never become a 5th gen aircraft. I hope my points have become clearer now.

    Hence, there is still consistency in my posts.
     
  13. Manmohan Yadav

    Manmohan Yadav Brigadier STAR MEMBER

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    Its a dead project, move on guys
     
  14. Gessler

    Gessler BANNED BANNED

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    [MENTION=10361]randomradio[/MENTION]

    More and more inconsistent and illogical HORSE SHIT.

    What you have said in this post is what I had been saying all along in the Typhoon
    v/s Rafale thread. That it's possible to make a 5th gen plane based on an original
    4th/4.5 gen design, with the addition of airframe modifications (or active cancellation
    technology) to reduce RCS, usage of stealthy weapon pods and CFTs in place of IWBs, etc.

    This is exactly what Boeing is doing (and claiming to be doing). They are taking an
    original 4th/4.5 gen platform like F/A-18 SH, and modifying it to give it all the capabilities
    and advantages offered by a 5th gen plane. This completely defeats your statement
    that 5th gen planes are only those that have been designed to be 5th gen (which in your
    nomenclature means stealthy) straight from the start.

    That is not correct. Any 4th/4.5 gen plane that has the room to be upgraded can
    become a 5th gen plane is all aspects except having IWBs, which can be countered to
    an extent with the usage of weapon pods & CFTs. That is what I've been saying since
    weeks ago.


    Rafale is already 5th gen in many aspects like highly advanced avionics, EW equipment,
    processing power, supercruise and low IR & EM signatures. It also has a degree of low RCS design
    but not like that of F-22 or F-35 mainly because of external weapon carriage.

    > RCS reduction is possible through both active and passive methods. Active methods
    can be applied on existing Rafales with minimal internal modification, external airframe
    modification is not required more than what has been done to implement the likes of
    DDM-NG on the newer Rafales. The Spectra will know the signature of it's own aircraft
    as it is and it's possible to make it eliminate much of the RCS returned by the
    existing Rafale through active cancellation.

    Passive means like airframe shaping will need heavy airframe modification and is not
    required if you choose to go the active way. Eliminating minor surface discontinuities
    however will not need any heavy modification.

    > Attaching stealthy weapon pods to the existing Rafales is not a problem either. It's
    like adding a new missile or new-design fuel tank.

    > CFTs will require certain airframe re-mapping, but nothing very significant to pass
    off as a major modification. We have seen F-16C Block-50/52s with and without CFTs
    and still they cannot be called different aircraft because of that modification.

    > Implementation of GaN technology on Rafale's radar & Spectra sensors as well will be
    of great help to advance their capabilities by a fair margin. GaN-equipped radars can
    be fitted on existing Rafales too.

    Your point that it will take an entirely new design airframe to make Raffy 5th gen is
    flawed as well. Your problem and inconsistency is that you did not originally agree to
    my claim that it's possible to make 4th/4.5 gen platforms into 5th gen planes through
    modifications, but since Boeing is claiming otherwise now, you are using my own
    arguments to hit me with to prove "your point".

    Old wine in new bottle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
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  15. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel REGISTERED

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    You didn't understand anything I posted. CFTs and IWBs on Rafale F3+ does nothing. It won't be a stealth aircraft. It will still be a 4.5th gen aircraft.

    What you want is a modernized Rafale F4 with shaping, plus CFTs and IWBs. That will bring it to 5th gen level.

    Active cancellation is still years away from being implemented. In case the French achieve it, they won't be handing it to us anyway. What Spectra does today is just ECM.
     
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