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why SU 35 would nt pose any serious security threat to india's RAFALE ,

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by DrSomnath999, Mar 16, 2013.

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  1. AccessDenied

    AccessDenied Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    I feel the exact same way!:cheers:
     
  2. AccessDenied

    AccessDenied Captain SENIOR MEMBER

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    My opinion is exactly opposite to yours in this matter.
     
  3. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    Larger size = more weight, more drag; so if wing loading, TWR and thrust/drag stay the same, result is less maneuverable fighter. Larger size also means larger IR and visual signature, so it is easier to detect. Large fighters also tend to be more expensive for a given level of technological advancement.
     
  4. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    Mate, I think you are underestimating our Russian friends here, they are desperate for money possibly, but by far not so naiv to give the Chinese everything and will keep things with their advantage in mind.
    The always sold things to our neighbors, which in their point of view was less capable as the techs and systems they sold or offerd to us:

    Su 30 MKK vs Su 30 MKI
    AL 31F vs AL 31 FP with TVC
    RD 93 vs RD33 MK (TVC on offer too)


    In this case, they know the Chinese need engine and possibly radar technology for their 5th generation fighter developments, since their own developments are struggeling similar to Indias developments. That's why the Su 35 would be an interesting offer for China and even if now ToT is part of the offer, they know sooner or later the Chinese will be able to re-design the techs and that Russia can't do anything against it, but this still gives them the chance to ask quiet some money from China and keep the Su 35 productionline running, since no other country seems to be interested in this fighter anymore. Russia is trying to sell it for quiet some time and all over the world, but with modern 4.5 gen fighters and even 5th fighters coming soon, the chances for Su35 exports are not that high.

    Wrt India their point will surely be, that they provide us with latest AESA radars, avionics and possibly upgraded AL 31FP engines through the Super 30 upgrade, not to mention the FGFA co-development, so that there is no issue in selling China "less capabale" techs and imo they are right.
    The sale of a limited number of Su35s will not make an operational difference, especially when our MKIs will be upgraded with even better techs and with Rafale alongside of them. But it will certainly add to Chinas NG fighter developments and that is the real concern for India or even for Russia.
     
  5. Sancho

    Sancho Lt. Colonel IDF NewBie

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    More weight will be countered by more thrust, with the Su 35 having the better TWR, while Rafale has the lower wingloading. Su 35 don't need to carry external fuel tanks, while Rafale does, which adds drag (and RCS). Su 35 has TVC, while Rafale has the canard design. Su 35 has HMS, while Rafale has the better WVR missile. Su 35 has the better radar (120° to the front), while Rafale has the better passiv detection and targeting capabilities (360°).

    So wrt maneuverability, close, or BVR combats, both fighters are highly capable but have their own ways to approach it and it might end up in what situation the fighters will meet eachother to decide who might win.
     
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  6. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    That's not what I'm talking about. Let me repeat myself: if two fighters have identical wing loading, thrust-to-weight ratio, and lift-to-drag ratio, one that is lighter and smaller will be more maneuverable.

    So Rafale has better ITR, and Su-35 may have better STR.

    Su-35 is better bomber and long-range patrol aircraft, but Rafale is better dogfighter.

    TVC is not really that useful in dogfight. It's mostly for air shows, really.

    There's lot more to comparision than just coverage, and while Su-35s radar is better than Rafale's in quite few aspects, best radar is one that is not emitting.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  7. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    Yes, that's what I wrote too.


    See, the issue I have here is that this is a very small cross-section of Russia's military sales to China, and only considers relatively recent purchases of air-based systems. All things considered, the advanced ground-based radar systems, air defence systems, submarines, design help with multiple Chinese projects, and so on, Russia's military aid to China has been at least twice as much as what they've supplied to India. But, as I argued before, this isn't much of an issue, mostly because India couldn't afford that sort of equipment before the late '90s.


    I agree to a certain extent. They have the foresight to see they can never really stop China from copying their technology. They know that China will eventually master these technologies anyway, and that it is probably a good idea to flush as much money out of them while they still can. But the Su-35S/BM remaining in production is not motivation for selling it to the Chinese. The truth is, with all the aging aircraft within the VVS itself, Russia will have to acquire a large number of Su-35s for herself within the next decade as it is. The security of Su-35S production is a given.

    I believe the lack of interest in the Su-35S/BM is more down to the fact that every nation that would usually consider the purchase is either under severe international sanctions, or already operates an advanced Su-30 variant. Plying the military market will only give them very small orders because what they're offering is an aircraft far too large and advanced for most small nations' requirements. There's also no aircraft to bridge the gap between the high performance Su-35S/BM, and the MiG-29SMT; the MiG-35 project is almost entirely bust. So most smaller nations would rather opt for the Gripen or the F-16. I'm not including South Korea here, who were never going to seriously consider the Russian offer: their ties to the west are far too strong and prohibitive for that.



    Because we're willing to pay for the research and development involved in coming up with said upgrades. China has been very reserved on that front, and has opted by and large for extant technologies rather than paying for upgrades. Single-engined versions of the Al-31 and RD-33 not counting.

    And as I wrote earlier, I don't see this sale of Su-35BMs to China as something particularly dangerous. Having said that, I do think that if India can do anything to mitigate the sale, or if Russia decides against pursuing it, it would be a good thing, all things considered.
     
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  8. ASHRAF

    ASHRAF FULL MEMBER

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    im talking about Ground radars not facing radars here regarding rafale rcs , and as i said earliar no meaning in real war this is not stealth
    [​IMG]
     
  9. ASHRAF

    ASHRAF FULL MEMBER

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    rafale used hammer missiles to destroy soko galeb trainer on runnway over libya coz it lacked speed to chase it and shoot it down with aam :) ,and could be radar issue ,,, and it didnt fly over triploi till b2 and tomahawk missiles finished gaddafi air defenses and stayed patrolling over bengazi only as show of power coz it was already out of gaddafi power and all air defenses where abandon , so ع speak more politely better coz the only boy i see here is u ,its not difficult to write garbage while ur hidden behind ur pc screen ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  10. ASHRAF

    ASHRAF FULL MEMBER

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    r-77 is in service , ramjet was successfull in 5 trials long years ago on su-27 but it requires customers who maybe china ,
    su-35 carries R-27R, R-27ER, R-27T, R-27ET, R-27EP, R-27AE ,r-77 R-77M1, R-77T R-73E, R-73M, R-74M future
    for r-27 its improved aerodynamics and same time when u open fire first using r-27 its always advantage(passive , exceelent range )and this will give u advantage to control the battle later to use radar guided missiles when oponent feel there is missile coming forward to him he cant sit and guess that this weak g loadr-27 or r-77?? ,,,,,he have to manuver and then he loose initiative as first look first shoot first kill , if he dont then r-27 still good coz he is heading to non-maneuvering target
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  11. Vritra

    Vritra Major ELITE MEMBER

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    No.
     
  12. Picard

    Picard Lt. Colonel RESEARCHER

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    You probably don't realize irony of the bolded statement.
     
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  13. Scorpion82

    Scorpion82 Captain FULL MEMBER

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    The entire opening post is utterly biased and one sided and talks about what the Rafale can supposedly do while providing absolutely nothing particular about what the Su-35 can do. Of course one can assume this or that, but what does it mean in absence of factual data/information? Posting some advertising materials about Rafale's SPECTRA or sensor fusion doesn't tell you anything wrt the respective qualities of the Su-35's EWS or sensor fusion and throwing around some phrases and generic data doesn't help to much either. Suffice to say that Rafale is no dog and will certainly be capable to hold its own against any realistic threat out their that can be expected in the upcoming years. Remains to be seen when Chinese or Russian 5th gen designs really hit the scene and how capable they will be, but that's not the topic here. One of the greatest mistakes you can make is to underestimate your opponents.
     
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  14. ASHRAF

    ASHRAF FULL MEMBER

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    why your so sure that Rafale can hold its own and u need to see Russian and Chinese 5th gen. in action ??? on what basis u create ur opinion ??.....loaded rafale with its rcs of more than 2m2 will sure still less capable than pak fa and j-20 LO planes
     
  15. ASHRAF

    ASHRAF FULL MEMBER

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    [​IMG]
     
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