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Will India develop its own light tank to counter China Xingingtan for High altitude warfare? Options

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by LonewolfSandeep, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Thx @randomradio ... yes checked building 100 light tracked tank & 200qty 8*8 wheeled light tank, both below 22ton weight, indeed true it seems.. Thats awesome... (good military/GUI/MOD already on it to fulfil strategic capacity gap in NE.. my worrying was unnecessary)
    http://www.thehindu.com/business/co...uristic-ultra-light-tanks/article16815437.ece


    Only one doubt, for the 100 Tracked are BEML building the below tank

    or this
    [​IMG]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-01
    or something else in 22 ton category

    could you confirm which of 2 tanks - PL-01 looks super awesome, but its 35 ton category (not 22) & invisible :badass: being zero heat signature, ambient temp tank..
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  2. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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  3. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    As it stands today, the IA is busy inducting T-90s for mountains.

    Light tanks may come up much later. It's not an urgent requirement. The setting up of the Mountain Strike Corps is more important after all.

    The US wants a new light tank. So there is a possibility we will collaborate with them and the Israelis on that one. Perhaps we will buy the light version of the PL-01. Can't say anything about the army. They change their minds quickly.
     
  4. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Or Indian Jugarr doing something else - i would have preferred along with bigger engine, a bigger gun as well too, not just 2 set anti-tank guided missiles on ready fire config.
    But guess something better than nothing...

    To Counter Chinese Xinqingtan light tank india to Upgrade 693 BMP-2 ICVs
    BY DEFENCEUPDATE · JULY 11, 2017
    [​IMG]
    India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) has approved the INR24 billion (USD371 million) upgrade of 693 Indian Army (IA) BMP-2/2K Sarath infantry combat vehicles (ICVs) to BMP-2M standard.

    Under the proposed upgrade, the BMP-2’s current power pack will be upgraded from 285 horsepower to 380. The upgrade also will provide better observation and surveillance, night-fighting capability, fire control system and anti-tank guided missile system. The vehicle will gain a capability of having two missiles loaded in ready-to-fire mode, allowing the gunner to fire missiles of his choice.

    The fire control system would have a ballistic control with sensors to monitor wind and temperature, and should have an advance accurate firing capability. A new turret is required to increase firepower and to fire new types of ammunition, and there is a requirement for a comprehensive electro-optic fire control system.
    India’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), headed by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, awarded the ICV upgrade on 8 July to Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), both of which are state-owned companies.

    The OFB unit in Medak licence-built around 1,250 BMP-2/2Ks between 1987 and 2007, all of which needed upgrading.

    Industry sources said that by awarding the contract to OFB and BEL, the MoD has contravened its own Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP)-2016 that dictates competitive bidding in the acquisition process.

    India’s MoD has approved the upgrade of 693 IA BMP-2/2K Sarath ICVs to BMP-2M standard. (V K Singh/Indian MoD)India’s MoD has approved the upgrade of 693 IA BMP-2/2K Sarath ICVs to BMP-2M standard.

    Senior IA officials told Jane’s that the ICV upgrade was “arbitrarily” awarded to the two state-owned companies without user trials, and that the approval of the OFB/BEL-designed fire control system was sanctioned merely on a “performance demonstration”.
    Mandatory maintainability, quality assurance, and electro-magnetic interference trials were not carried out, a senior industry executive told Jane’s on condition of anonymity.

    “Under pressure from the army, which wanted the ICV upgrade to be fast-tracked, the MoD also ignored several indigenous private sector companies who had developed assorted technologies for the BMP-2 upgrade,” the source said.

    Many of these potential vendors were involved in the MoD’s long-pending Future ICV programme and wanted to try out their technologies in the BMP-2/2K upgrade project, the source added.

    The IA and MoD did not immediately respond to a request for comment

    http://defenceupdate.in/to-counter-chinese-xinqingtan-light-tank-india-to-upgrade-693-bmp-2-icvs/
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
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  5. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
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  6. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Debunking the hype on Chinese tanks
    July 30, 2017, 4:30 AM IST Lt General K J Singh in General's Jottings | India | TOI
    [​IMG]
    Tanks are powerful instrument for power projection with defining images of blazing armoured formations in vanguard of major conquests. Chinese use them ruthlessly, who can forget Tiananmein square massacre lead by tanks. In the last six weeks of Dolam stand-offs, Chinese, past masters in psychological warfare, have tried to scare Indian public. There has been extensive coverage of routine mechanized manoeuvres in Tibet to give it a slant as if they are being prepared to roll down Chumbi valley into our Achilles heel, Siliguri corridor. Added to this is fielding of a new light tank, ZTQ, touted as a customized silver bullet for Tibet. While tanks remain a potent threat, it will be in order to examine this hype in an objective manner and draw appropriate lessons.

    Tanks indeed are the prima-donna in plains but their effectiveness in mountains is limited to few narrow valleys and corridors. These areas and avenues leading to them can be kept under surveillance as build up of mechanised formations with large signature is difficult to conceal. In fact, the best way to counter tanks in these areas is by establishing an effective anti-tank grid to deny them limited avenues. It is based on layers of early warning and surveillance; mines and ditches; artillery fire both indirect as well as direct; accurate anti-tank missiles anchored by vectored tank manoeuvres and fire assaults. In our context, there are only very few such places and each of these so called gaps or funnels in Northern Sikkim and Ladakh can be converted into traps and killing grounds like Khemkaran thereby providing ‘Asal Uttar’ or real answer to Chinese forays as and when they are attempted. While we have some challenges in Ladakh but our domination over Kerang plateau in Sikkim is real and effective.

    Chinese opacity in manoeuvres including exaggerated figures of participation was best experienced by an Indian Army delegation taken to China to see a mechanised exercise, where they were confined to a building, shown excerpts of exercise on projection system, which most certainly were edited. Chinese play mind games with designation of their tanks, so a copy of Russian T-54 is called T-59 and T-90 equivalents are referred to as Type 96 and Type 99. The latest, so called light tank, ZTQ or Xinquistan weighs 33 to 36 tonnes, which is just two tonnes less than medium tank, T-55. Details and features of tank are still shrouded in mystery, yet most informed analysts estimate this tank to have 105mm (probably rifled) gun and 1000 HP engine. It is certainly a non-amphibian with question marks on missile firing capability. Though air transportable yet very limited numbers can be lifted even from air fields in hinter land and none from Tibet due to payload restrictions in rarefied atmosphere. It defies governing criteria for light tanks of weight ceiling of 28 tonnes and amphibian capability. Are Chinese laying down the new norm of 36 tonnes for light tanks?

    Organisationally, there are chinks in Chinese armour like 35 tank battalions against 45 tanks in our units and mechanised infantry based on battle taxis unlike our BMPs. While they have 40 odd regiments arrayed yet large proportion is equipped with antique T-59 tanks, their application at chosen point of application is restricted by terrain and is likely to be sequential.

    More importantly, we need to learn lessons for ourselves, the most critical is requirement to customize our mechanized fleet for high altitude, where biggest problem is de-rating of engine power. Our formidable T-72s with 780 HP lose as much as 25% power due to rarified atmosphere. There is an inescapable requirement to upgrade power packs to 1000 HP and acquire rubberized pads for tracks to enable them to move on roads. We need to take an urgent call on light tanks and add two regiments each in Ladakh and Sikkim for recce and quick reaction roles. With four additional regiments, we will be able to address force asymmetry and create some quid-pro-quo options. It is believed that Tatas and DRDO have a workable option, which can be examined. It may be prudent to create two separate mechanized HQs for Northern plateau and Siliguri corridor to control mechanized battles. Chinese have practiced heavy dropping of armoured vehicles and combat scenarios like capture of passes, which makes it incumbent on us to beef up defences of our passes and have basic air defence and surveillance in place.

    (The writer is former Army commander, Western Command)

    http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/generals-jottings/debunking-the-hype-on-chinese-tanks/
     
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  7. MilSpec

    MilSpec Mod Staff Member MODERATOR

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    Just wondering how do t90s compare to light tanks when it comes to cross country mobility? Also this light tank req primarily there for having the ability to be airlifted
     
  8. randomradio

    randomradio Colonel Technical Analyst

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    If the Chinese plan on using light tanks as MBTs for offensive missions, then they will get killed in battle. No question about it.

    There is little to no advantage in cross country mobility and the Chinese are designing aircraft that can lift their heaviest tanks, so airlift isn't such a big problem, but it is probably what they have in mind. It's possible that the Chinese believe they can lift a 36T tank from Tibetan airfields with their new Y-20 transport.

    We plan on using light tanks someday, but in a defensive setting.

    http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/generals-jottings/debunking-the-hype-on-chinese-tanks/

    @Hellfire will have stronger opinions on this.
     
  9. Kalmuahlaunda

    Kalmuahlaunda Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Thats a good Idea @Hellfire @randomradio and other mods should open a thread about ideas and then write a letter collecting all of them to the govt and post it here
     
  10. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    These under-powered Chinese toys are useless on Himalayan terrain. Most of their PLA exercises 'in Tibet' are always on the plateau. As for us we need loaded LCHs, Rudras and heavy attack Helos - lots of them. Lots of fun ahead outmaneuvering the Himalayas and of course beyond.
     
  11. LonewolfSandeep

    LonewolfSandeep Lieutenant FULL MEMBER

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    Not to forget most of 15+ Chinese Airfields in Himalayas Tibet is at 4km+ altitude. Tough luck flying with heavy load & full fuel from there for meaningful attack.
    No such hickup from IAF from relatively low lvl airfields right next to Himalayas. That defence benefit always remain with us.
     
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  12. Gessler

    Gessler Lt. Colonel Technical Analyst

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    Don't need any light tanks at the moment or for the foreseeable future, we'd already have the battle tipped in our favor with these existing equipment & near-future acquisitions -

    T-90MS
    [​IMG]

    T-72M1/CIA
    [​IMG]

    BMP-2M Sarath
    [​IMG]

    HAL Rudra
    [​IMG]

    HAL LCH
    [​IMG]

    And don't be surprised if infantry equipment like RCLs, manportable ATGMs etc. actually get more kills than tanks & helos...
     
  13. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    Would REALLY like to see the NAMICA getting into service in large numbers, these things will utterly decimate enemy armoured columns- especially at altitude where IR signatures are more pronounced.

    [​IMG]



    In an ideal world DRDO would already be trailing the NAMICA turret on the 8x8 Kestral.
     
  14. sangos

    sangos Lt. Colonel ELITE MEMBER

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    Once the Apaches are deployed in the fast paced refurbished ALGs. Chinese military should not miss their prayers in Tibet. Game over
     
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  15. Abingdonboy

    Abingdonboy Major Technical Analyst

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    I'm not sure how soon Apaches will be deployed to the East- the IAF's Apaches will replace their Mi-25 SQNs (based in the West) and the IA is looking to get Apaches to induct into their IBGs- again deployed in the West.

    Rudras and LCH will be coming to the East in large numbers though and in fact Rudras have already started being deployed there.
     
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